CONEXPO-CON/AGG Podcast Host Taylor White welcomes the truly amazing Matt DiBara, a fourth-generation mason and Owner of DiBara Masonry, and the Founder of The Contractor Consultants to the podcast today. At just 31 years old, Matt has transformed the recruitment landscape for contractors, offering a fresh approach to an industry rich in tradition. With over 100 years of family history in the masonry business, Matt's story reflects a blend of dedication, innovation, and a commitment to blue-collar excellence. Together, he and Taylor delve into the complexities of running a family business, the value of preserving hands-on experience, and the crucial role of innovative recruitment strategies in the construction industry.
As they explore Matt's journey, the conversation highlights the importance of maintaining a generational legacy in the masonry sector while adapting to the evolving dynamics of a family-owned business. Matt discusses how his upbringing, deeply rooted in blue-collar values, influenced his approach to business and life, leading him to develop a recruitment model that connects skilled workers with great employers. The episode also touches on the significance of employee appreciation, the challenges of achieving work-life balance as an entrepreneur, and the strategies that enabled Matt to break into the high-profile Los Angeles market. As you will hear, Matt's story is a powerful reminder of the impact that innovation and a strong work ethic can have in the construction industry and beyond.
Topics:
- Generational Legacy: Upholding a 100-year family business, emphasizing hands-on experience, and addressing blue-collar work stigmas.
- Business Growth: Scaling through strategic geographic expansion and diversification of services.
- Innovative Recruitment: Transforming how skilled workers connect with employers in the construction industry.
- Employee Appreciation: Fostering a family-like culture and respecting employees to ensure loyalty.
- Work-Life Balance: Navigating the challenges of balancing entrepreneurship with family responsibilities.
- Market Expansion: Successfully entering the competitive Los Angeles market by seizing new opportunities.
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Episode transcript:
Taylor White: You’ve got a lot going on. Your head's going 100 miles an hour as well, too. You're a serious entrepreneur. You're a serious guy that's thinking about business and what the next thing is. How do we grow? How do I keep improving my life? You want wealth, which is happiness, money, love, family, all those things. So how do you kind of balance all of that?
Matt DiBara: Well, I think for me, the big thing was anything I did, it came from this big sense of purpose. Family is a big thing. I didn't see my dad as much growing up so I'm obsessed with my family, my daughter, spending time with them is huge. So I think the hiring came from my dad struggling to hire and seeing other contractors struggle. So I think the first thing is the foundation. Everything that I do, I don't do half measures. I'm like, if it's a priority for me, I'm going to make it work. And so I don't have things that I'm kind of lukewarm about, which, I mean, I'm sure most people don't either. So there's no big difference there, but I think it's that. And then I find a lot of passion in what I do.
And then I believe in counterbalance. First of all, family’s on the same page, that's a huge one for me. Like my wife we're on the same wavelength there. But then counterbalance is a big concept for me, meaning I don't believe in trying to do everything all the same at all points. I might have two weeks where I'm just like, solely into work where we're up leveling the hiring, we're meeting with the management team. My wife and daughter know I might not see them for a week and a half, two weeks, But then I might spend a dedicated week or five days where it's nothing but them. And the depth of the time is so fulfilling that I don't feel like I missed something or lost something. So I don't try and balance everything perfectly. I'm like, “At this week or this day, this is my priority.” And I make sure that's the main priority. Because I found in the early days I would try and do everything, and it was like I was just a ping pong ball bouncing back and forth between all the different things. I'm like, “I got to do family for an hour, then I got to do this, then I got to do these meetings, then I have to go to these clients.” And I'm like, “No. What's the important kind of week or month or what chapter am I in relative to these priorities?” And then I start to feel an area might be a little bit lacking of attention, and then I'll just pivot. And so that's kind of how I– I'm a simple guy. I'm a contractor, So imagine you got all your subs on a job. It's like, “Okay. My framers need a little love. I'm going to go over there and talk to them.” They're like, “Okay, these guys are falling behind.” It's kind of how I look at it.
Taylor White: Welcome back, everybody, to the CONEXPO-CON/AGG podcast. I am your host, as always, Taylor White. This show is brought to you by our good friends over at Komatsu. Got to make sure to thank them. Big supporters of the channel. We appreciate that very much. With me today, I have Matt, who is a fourth generation mason who created The Contractor Consultants to revolutionize recruitment for contractors. He has been featured in several publications such as California Business Journal, CEO Weekly, Yahoo Finance, The Detroit News, LA Weekly, and more. At only 30 years old, he has also achieved levels of success that most people would consider remarkable for someone of retirement age. He became a millionaire at 27, works on celebrity homes in LA, writes books and curriculum, serves as a keynote speaker, and is in the early stages of developing a potential TV show. With me today, I have Matt DiBara.
Matt, thanks for coming on.
Matt DiBara: Hey, thank you for having me.
Taylor White: Dude, what a hell of an intro, eh?
Matt DiBara: I don't know who wrote that, but they did a good job.
Taylor White: Did I sum it up pretty good? Because you sound like a big deal.
Matt DiBara: Yeah, I don't know how they did that, but–
Taylor White: So, Matt, why don't we kind of just talk about who you are and what you do and kind of, I guess, why you're on the podcast, because there's a bunch of things. But basically the biggest outlier that I see is fourth generation business owner, which is really cool. I'm third generation. So you got over 100 years in the Mason company which is super cool. Talk about that a little bit.
Matt DiBara: Yeah, I mean, we're blue collar. That was the thing growing up. My great grandfathers, both of them came here from Italy to the States. They worked with their hands, they took what they knew, and then that passed down to my grandfather. And then my father and my uncle looked up to what my grandfather did. And then the same thing with me, I started at a really young age, nine years old was my first paid day on the job and kind of the rest is history. I just loved what I did.
Taylor White: That's awesome. So what kind of involvement do you have with the business now? You own it? It's you doing it?
Matt DiBara: Yeah. So I relocated the business to California about 12 years ago. We did some work out here. My uncle would travel out here and whatnot. Liked the warm weather. It was always a thing about the cold weather that I didn't love because I grew up outside of Boston. I run the company. Funny story, I actually got licensed when I was 18 back east because we had the old school kind of family and it was coming time to take over. It was the, “If you could do it better, do it yourself” type thing. And so we've got a funny little backstory. But like most people, it's looking up to what your parents did and if they're in the industry or if you know somebody in the industry, it's usually how you get in is what I see anyway.
Taylor White: No, I respect that. And in doing the family business, so you're great grandfather started the business? Your grandfather?
Matt DiBara: So my grandmother's father and my grandfather's father were both home builders and masons. So you can imagine how that went. They actually built homes together for my dad and their parents. And one was very much a businessman. It was kind of quick and one of the numbers and the other one was an artist. And so they used to argue. The funny story, the family story is they used to argue on job sites and one would leave. So there's that rich history of just working together, loving what you do but doing things slightly different.
Taylor White: Yeah. Did you always have a love for the industry and doing it like you grew up and you were saying blue collar? Do you have the love for being blue collar? Did you grow up doing it? Were you on the tools or were you just like, “Hey, I'm going to go here,” and then here I am, owning the business, running it now?
Matt DiBara: Well, my dad gave me a trowel instead of a shovel in the sandbox when I was like four. So, my dad was really passionate about the trade. And so there's pictures of me, I had masonry tools in the sandbox as a little kid instead of the plastic beach toys or whatever. So I always loved the industry, but I think what my family did that was interesting was my dad always showed me his work, and at a young age, I would go to his job site. So for me, it was just a kid who enjoyed spending time with his dad and got to play in the dirt. And so I started on the tools. My first day I mixed mortar. I placed second in the country in a bricklaying competition. I grew up doing all of this stuff, layouts, building, all that. And so I didn't realize until later in life probably 17, 18, 19, that there was like a trade stigma. You go to a restaurant and you're dirty and they're like, “We can't take you here.” I'm like, “What do you mean you can't take me?” I didn't know any of that because all of the family and friends were all just contractors.
Taylor White: I have a really relatable thing, and it's actually funny. It was two nights ago, I was in the kitchen with my wife and we were talking. I said. “We're running really lean this year.” And for the past couple of years, I've been able to focus on the business outward. And this year I'm a site guy through and through. I like getting dirty. I like running machinery, and I like doing that stuff. We have an office staff, management that takes care of stuff. And it allows me to kind of go off and do my thing, which is nice. But this year, especially the last month, I've been on site getting dirty with the boys. And it is wild how differently people treat you when you walk around with a high vis, dirty shirt on, and roughed up jeans and a hard hat on, versus when I pull up in my vehicle and I'm wearing nice jeans, maybe a nice pair of Nike sneakers, and a nice polo shirt tucked in and I’m clean. It is insane how differently people treat you. I know that there's a lot of other stuff in the world where this happens as well, too, but how poorly blue collar people get treated on a day to day basis is insane.
Matt DiBara: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I would do this thing where when I worked on job sites, I never had to worry about the homeowners or the contractors thinking I was the owner, ever. If I ever wanted to blend in and understand a relationship, let's say my site super is like, “Hey, Matt. This GC and all these problems,” I go, “Okay. Well, I'll go work in the field for a day.” You'd see the real deal because they would never suspect all that. I mean, everything you're saying is so relatable. We had old beat up trucks because my dad was passionate about fixing them, and we had our shop on the weekends, and it was just that, that whole deal. I remember just friends growing up, and they laughed at the stuff my dad would drive and they had no idea the kind of money we were making. My dad was a super humble guy. You'd have no idea. Work boots, t-shirt. We did well for ourselves, but the stigma is real, for sure.
Taylor White: Yeah, 100%. And I like the kind of going through the generations. I'm third generation, and I think about fourth generation, and it's funny because my dad always says, he's like, “Oh, third generation. You're the one that's reaping all the rewards for my suffering. You know?” But then I think the same as well, because we did another big expansion, and I put my nuts on the line, and I look at my kids and I'm like, “You guys are going to reap the rewards. There's this 10 acre lot that we're on, our office, our warehouse, our stuff, it'll be mortgage free. You're going to be the winners on it.” So it's crazy. Have you tried to grow the business and take on a bunch yourself, or do you feel like a fourth generation, “Okay, I am reaping a lot of the rewards, but I'm also putting in a lot of my own skin into the game.”?
Matt DiBara: It's so funny you say that. I go back and forth. I go through these times where, for example, when I was 18, I got licensed. We had a big argument about lead gen, and that was, you're coming towards the middle of the 2008 financial crisis, around 2009, 2010. I saw a bunch of my dad's friends, $30, $40, $50 million a year mega companies to us at the time, and they're going out of business. We're going there on weekends to look at their equipment to see if we want to buy their trucks. And I'm going, “Holy, crap. These are huge companies.” And so I became obsessed with the marketing and the lead gen and trying to take control of getting away from the relationships because we always had word of mouth. But there was a little bit of bitterness with my dad because if a GC beat us up, he really couldn't be like, “Oh, I don't want to do this.” We had a lot of work, but a GC could very easily be, or a homeowner, for that matter, could be like, “Hey, I need you to knock 10% off.” My dad would have to do it because it wasn't a consistent pipeline.
And so I got licensed at, I think it was 18, 19. I was in college. He's like, “If you can do this better, do it yourself.” And so I got licensed, built a website, and started advertising on HomeAdvisor and Angie's List. And I remember because I was in college, and my college was two hours away, I got a call for this huge stone restoration project. It was about $300,000. And I called my dad, and I was like, “Hey.” Because I was doing little stuff I was trying to do chimneys and foundation repairs and little drainage projects, stuff I could do on a weekend. And I called my dad, and like, “Hey, I got this huge stone job. You want to take a look?” And so I didn't tell him where I got it from or anything. And so he went out there and he closed. It was like $300,000. And he goes, “Where'd you find that?” I said, “It cost me $46 from one of these lead sites.” And so he goes, “All right. I was wrong. We'll sit down, we'll talk.” He's like, “I apologize.” So I go back and forth, there's things I contributed, and then there's also stuff that they did that I stand on their shoulders for sure.
Taylor White: I love that. And what's interesting, though, and whenever you said you moved to California, definitely, you didn't move there for the taxes, that's for sure. The weather's great, but the taxes suck. So talk about that move a little bit and the transition there. So you moved away. Maybe there was some family stuff. We don't need to get into that. And you talked about maybe earlier on, you're at a celebrity's house doing some stuff right now. How do you kind of break into that niche? Are you in LA? Are you kind of like Glendale, whatever? And how did you get into that?
Matt DiBara: Well, that's where I think I take a lot away from my grandfather, great grandfather. So I came to Los Angeles. We had friends, owned Italian restaurants. It'd be like if I took the sauce and I brought it to another location, the model, the method, everything we're doing, same stuff. And even some of the people came over later. But I actually moved out here when things were great with my dad. It was just me being licensed and on my own taught me a lot. And then I went back with him and we worked together, and I said, “Let's figure out a way to do both. Let me help you over there and let me come out here.” And so things were better than ever when I did that. But I used the model that my great grandfathers used when they came to America, in which we had a couple simple things in the business. Number one was treat customers like neighbors. You'll never make a wrong decision. So my dad or my grandfather would, as a kid, I'd be like, “Well, do we do this or do that? They said, “What would you do if it was Sandra's house? She was our neighbor.” And I go, “Well, I would probably take this out and do that.” And they go, “Well, that's probably the right answer.” And so treat customers like neighbors, and then treat employees like family. And so that's what I did with every client. I would just go above and beyond. We used to bring Windex. And we would literally, if we're working in an area, we had a rule that if there were windows, we would literally Windex. We'd usually wait until the owner comes out at the end of the deal after, we'd have someone spray it because we really care. We wanted to show that. So it was obsessed with communication for the clients.
Taylor White: Then that runs into, okay yes, you're doing your marketing and your advertising. But then once I feel like you get in that network of maybe some high profile clients or a high profile builder in that area, and they go, “Oh, DiBara Masonry. These guys do some crazy good stuff. They go above and beyond. They're great dudes. You should use them.” And it's kind of just like word of mouth maybe at that point. Obviously still lots of marketing and advertising, but do you think that once you get in with a high profile client, then it's like some referral, I guess, from there?
Matt DiBara: One of the things I learned in business is to spot the breakout jobs. And what I mean by that is jobs that you can probably think of certain projects or relationships that you're like, “Oh, man, if I nail this, this is the next level.” And so I had a few of those. One was like a leak for a celebrity in a pool. And they had five people come out and say there was no leak. And I told them, I said,”Look, I'll pay $3000. I'll have your whole thing tested on one condition. If there is a leak, you have to hire me for the job.” So I did, and that broke me into a huge network. And he kind of smiled. He's like, “Okay, hotshot.” Shook on it, wrote up an agreement that said I'll cover all the costs. So I had a few of those. I did something for Jim Henson Studios. They had Charlie Chaplin, the actors' footprints were in concrete on a sidewalk, and it was sinking, and they wanted to cut it out and mount it. And they had all kinds of people there, and we're cutting this square that if we break, it's done. You know?
Taylor White: Dang. Oh, that would be scary.
Matt DiBara: They have a camera crew there. So imagine the stress. My buddy, he calls me up, he's like, “Hey, Matt. They got Red Hot Chili Peppers and a camera crew, and a whole thing.” I'm like, “I don't know. Tell them you need some space. We got to get this done.” So I think recognizing the breakout projects and then just obsessing over those. I would wait for the opportunity and be like, “Oh, this is one of those.” And I got more selective with it, but that helped build into the network and build the relationships.
Taylor White: Nice. And so you've built the business. Have you grown as far as revenue and employee wise since you took over the company?
Matt DiBara: Yeah, probably six times, seven times the company because we do residential, commercial, and prevailing wage now. So we're doing government work. We're doing prevailing wage products, three divisions within the company. We're doing masonry and concrete. We're licensed GCs. So we will pick up site work, grading. We'll do framing if we need to. My crews are super well versed.
Taylor White: Wow, that's super cool. So. And how many guys do you have on right now? Guys and girls?
Matt DiBara: 48 in the field.
Taylor White: Dang, that's impressive. So I guess then because there's a bunch of other stuff, too, and I mentioned in the intro. So you were talking about a potential TVshow. Now, does that play into kind of the marketing and growing the business? I would assume so. Or is that kind of like a personal thing where you're like, “Hey. I think I have something interesting going on enough here that I can make a show about.”
Matt DiBara: The goal for the show was helping homeowners with contractor issues. That was one of the things that I kind of built a name out of around here. I started working for a lot of lawyers. I started getting involved in legal cases and consulting and so. But I look young and I was never- talking going back to the work boots and the jeans and the t-shirt, that's my kind of normal look. And so when I would go on these projects to investigate what was happening, I was never– they would literally– I did a job on a big– There was a multi hundred thousand dollar legal issue with these painters. And they literally handed me the cans of paint. I was like, “Yeah, I'm doing some stuff for the gunners. Can I see what you're doing?” “Yeah, take this.” And they're laughing about how they're using the wrong product. And it was this concept of being young and not or looking young, rather, and being very unassuming, but also having the background and understanding how to solve these issues is kind of the goal of the show.
Taylor White: That's sweet. So is it in the works? Are you filming it? Is it coming out? Are we going to see it on Discovery after Gold Rush or what?
Matt DiBara: That's the goal, yeah, the Gold Rush. Yeah, that's my show, man. I love that show. That's the goal. We're in talks right now. So there's a lot of stuff moving forward on that front.
Taylor White: That's really cool. Now, talk about the recruitment side. Obviously, did you see a help in the labor shortages? And you're like, “Hey, I could do something about this.”
Matt DiBara: Kind of. It was more of an accident. So we were growing the company about three years ago, we were at like the pinnacle. I was doing a huge prevailing wage job, I think 10,000, 15,000 pieces of granite for the Veterans Memorial Cemetery. I think we got an award from Congress right after that for quality and craftsmanship. Like, it was a big deal. So I was doing that and I had a bunch of celebrity projects and then a lot of just the residential division was doing well and we couldn't hire. And it got to the point where my management team, finally, they were like, “Matt, you don't understand. We can't hire.” And I'm like, “Yeah, but post it on here.” Because I thought sales solved everything because if you go back to the kind of my journey, like 2008 was the thing that really scared me. So im like, “Boy, you have work. You're good.” It's not always the case. And so I lost many millions of dollars of work and actual hard money in the span of like three or four months because I couldn't staff jobs, the subs that I would work with were too busy. The smaller companies we partnered with, all the things that I would do to handle excess work just disappeared and we couldn't get anybody.
And so I became obsessed with hiring. And that's what led to a year long journey. I mean, it was crazy. The things that we tested and then we figured out a model and then we built a course, kind of got endorsed by the co-founder Ziprecruiter and became this really cool course that we built. And then it evolved into, “Hey, what if we just did this for companies?” And I became really passionate about what I think is one of the biggest lever pulls you can have in a business, which is finding great people. And I hated the recruiter model and the traditional staffing agency model. So I felt like those were taxi cabs. And I wanted to build something with our team that was like Uber. It was like, “What's the new version of this?” And that's kind of what we did.
Taylor White: So how does it work? What makes you different?
Matt DiBara: So we become a partner within the company. So we become your hiring partner. So we embed our company alongside you. So if you work with a recruiter, you're paying that huge upfront recruiter’s fee, right? Or on a staffing agency side, you usually kill culture, and you don't typically keep the team member. You bring them in hourly, and that's that. And so we built a model. It's a low monthly fee, and we handle all the lead gen for you. So all the candidate lead gen. So we do a competitor analysis, so we understand who your competitors are, a labor market analysis. And then we understand your company's unique elements that create kind of the elevator pitch for your job description. We amplify that using our software and our methods, and then we filter all the candidates for you. So if you, Taylor, come to us, and you're like, “Hey. Yeah, I need two machine operators.” We're like, “Great.” We'll do all our research, come back to you. Here's the job description. This is the market for pay. What are you paying? Great. And then we'll do all the calling, the screening. So your calendar, you'll never talk to anybody that doesn't meet all the criteria that you set forth. Ten years experience, lives within 30 miles, this, this. And the nice part about it, low monthly fee, fixed. And you own all of the candidates. So you could say, “Hey, Matt. Let me try Michael. I don't necessarily know that he's great, but let me bring him to the field for a couple of weeks.” If he doesn't work out, no problem. With a traditional recruiter, you're not typically doing that because you have to pay that fee. And then we also help you with candidate rejection. So there's many steps. I'm kind of oversimplifying. But we take all the heavy lifting off of you. You don't worry about job posting, headline testing. You're not resume screening. You're not talking to any unqualified candidates. We do all of that. You only get involved, it's like, boom, here's three people that meet your criteria.
Taylor White: Which is really nice, because everything you're saying– Somebody that has a smaller business, they might be listening. I just hire people myself, but myself, I don't have a recruiter or somebody in house that just hires. So the careers@kwconstruction.ca email is on my phone and on my office computer, and I go through and I'll look at them. I have another girl that goes through and she basically just, “Okay, somebody applied for labor, had an equipment operator,” shoves it into a folder, and when we need somebody, we go into that folder and we look. But it is a full time thing, especially us, with our social media and stuff, with our reach, we get probably seven to eight applicants a day of people being like, “Hey. Are you guys hiring? Are you guys hiring?” And it's seven or eight, but it's seven or eight different things that you have. Somebody has to dedicate time to look through their credentials, see what they have, folder it properly, file it properly. So it makes sense to have something like that. And it's cool that you're doing it in a more unique way. Especially with the pay structure, which is nice because we've tried to do recruiting before for a CFO position, like controller type position and it was just unsuccessful because the people that they were sending to us just did not match our culture. Like you mentioned culture, it didn't suit us as well. So it's nice to hear you actually even say that word when you talk about recruiting, because our culture is completely different from the next construction company culture. And I know that it's not cheesy, me being like, “We’re neat, we’re better.” But like, genuinely, we are different. I have a full time videographer that films everything every single day. Our whole dynamic is so different. So that is interesting that you kind of integrate that. How is that going? Is it something that it kind of took off more than you thought it would.
Matt DiBara: Yeah. I mean, we're in Canada. We're looking at the UK market. Australia will probably be in six to eight months. We're cooking. We just got an award, I think two awards. One was Top Outsource Hiring Company, and then we got another one, Product of the Month by CCR Mag, Commercial Construction Magazine. But it comes from what you said, it's a deep understanding. All of our team members that do the recruiting have construction experience. They have a background, they know the terminology, they know the pain points. One of the things, I got a report on some of the headline testing we did, I have it here in front of me. But there's so much nuance to it. It's almost like back in the day when websites were a thing, you could just put up a website and you would get calls. It was like, you had a website, you were going, it didn't matter. You could just be like Joe's Plumbing, and that's it. You're getting it. And then when everyone got websites, now you need SEO to be at the top. You need to backlink, and you need content and a blog. It became complicated. And now it's- hiring’s like that. We headline test. We look at the competitors. We look at job description testing. We'll do benefit testing. So it's like, what's the things that candidates want to see at the top? We get to all the candidates within the first three minutes. So we have a full, dedicated team.
So that initial interaction for you, Taylor, would be that email comes in, boom, we're calling them. We're following up in an hour. We're texting them. Our team, because of the dedication, we're not letting anything through. And then we own and manage that applicant tracking system. So if down the line, you're like, “Hey, I need somebody who's a little bit less skilled. So and so just got hurt.” We're like, “All right. Well, let's look at all the people we have.” Boom. So there's no per candidate. We do a monthly fee, up to three different job roles. So we have a painter. And he was like, “I need a project manager, I need a bookkeeper, and I need painters.” This guy hired four painters within the first six weeks, because that's the job description. That's the funnel. So it's like, however many people you hire, no problem. So that's kind of the model that we figured out, and it's serving us well. It's really about helping the contractors. That's the big thing for me.
Taylor White: Yeah, 100%. How old are you?
Matt DiBara: 31.
Taylor White: Wow. Dang. You got wife, kids, family?
Matt DiBara: Yeah, my daughter's two and a half.
Taylor White: Yeah, I have a three year old and a one year old.
Matt DiBara: Nice.
Taylor White: Boy and girl. So how do you manage all this stuff? Because I'm just listening to you talking, and it's super interesting, but, I mean, you got a lot going on. Your head's going 100 miles an hour as well, too. You're a serious entrepreneur. You're a serious guy that's thinking about business and what the next thing is. How do we grow? How do I keep improving my life? You want wealth, which is happiness, money, love, family, all those things. So how do you kind of balance all of that?
Matt DiBara: Well, I think for me, the big thing was anything I did, it came from this big sense of purpose. Family is a big thing. I didn't see my dad as much growing up so I'm obsessed with my family, my daughter, spending time with them is huge. So I think the hiring came from my dad struggling to hire and seeing other contractors struggle. So I think the first thing is the foundation. Everything that I do, I don't do half measures. I'm like, if it's on, if it's a priority for me, I'm going to make it work. And so I don't have things that I'm kind of lukewarm about, which, I mean, I'm sure most people don't either. So there's no big difference there, but I think it's that. And then I find a lot of passion in what I do,
And then I believe in counterbalance. First of all, family’s on the same page, that's a huge one for me. Like my wife we're on the same wavelength there. But then counterbalance is a big concept for me, meaning I don't believe in trying to do everything all the same at all points. I might have two weeks where I'm just like, solely into work where we're up leveling the hiring, we're meeting with the management team. My wife and daughter know I might not see them for a week and a half, two weeks, But then I might spend a dedicated week or five days where it's nothing but them. And the depth of the time is so fulfilling that I don't feel like I missed something or lost something. So I don't try and balance everything perfectly. I'm like, “At this week or this day, this is my priority.” And I make sure that's the main priority. Because I found in the early days I would try and do everything, and it was like I was just a ping pong ball bouncing back and forth between all the different things. I'm like, “I got to do family for an hour, then I got to do this, then I got to do these meetings, then I have to go to these clients.” And I'm like, “No. What's the important kind of week or month or what chapter am I in relative to these priorities?” And then I start to feel an area might be a little bit lacking of attention, and then I'll just pivot. And so that's kind of how I– I'm a simple guy. I'm a contractor, So imagine you got all your subs on a job. It's like, “Okay. My framers need a little love. I'm going to go over there and talk to them.” They're like, “Okay, these guys are falling behind” It's kind of how I look at it.
Taylor White: I respect that. And it's interesting because it's a sacrifice. Especially owning your own business and doing a bunch of stuff.We were supposed to go on a family vacation to Prince Edward Island last month, and I said we were going to go this month, and that was this week. And we're not there because we're on a bunch of projects right now that require me to be here. And that's what we're doing. And think also, it just requires the right woman. A lot of guys always like, “Oh, some advice,” and I say marry the right woman because it definitely takes its toll. And your wife, understanding, especially in blue collar, it's early morning, it's late nights. Our summertime, well you came from a climate that was probably very seasonal, but here it's super seasonal. So my summertime is my summertime. I have to make a year's worth of salary in six months, five months. Let's go. So it's a big sacrifice, but it's nice hearing that at least you try to not per se, balance, but you understand that, “Okay. I'm going to dedicate some time here. And now I have to dedicate some time here. It's refreshing. It's nice to hear.”
Matt DiBara: Yeah. I mean, that's what worked for me. And I think to your point, it's being on the same page with people across even the companies and what I do is really big on where we are going, what we are doing, and measuring the small things and then zooming out and measuring the big stuff. And I think resets are important, too. I try to reset every six to eight weeks. I’ll do some form of a reset. And I think that's helped me. I go to a cabin or just take a day and kind of unwind a little bit. Because anytime I do that, I get a new perspective. And I'm like, “Oh, I missed this,” or “I was too focused here.” But yeah, there's a big element of sacrifice. For sure.
Taylor White: Yeah. For me, that's running. I like the reset of running. I'll think about stuff differently when I'm on a run, listening to a podcast or a book, not necessarily working out. When I'm doing that, I'll have some loud music going on. But when I'm running, I really think about what we're doing, what projects we're doing. I think about my life, I think about my family, am I being a good father? Am I being a good employer? All of those things. And it's, that's nice because I'm sure you think about those things, too, when you're on your reset as well, too. So it's cool to hear that.
Where is DiBara Masonry like, where's that headed? Where's that going? Where do you see it going? I know you're talking about TV show and stuff like that. Do you want to continue to grow the business? Do you want to stay at the current size you are, but just be more efficient, be better?
Matt DiBara: I think for me it'll grow. It'll grow organically. We've got the three different verticals. We’re definitely being pulled more on the government side, prevailing wage projects. We’re literally being pulled towards them. That and high end commercials. So I think organic growth as opposed to me pushing it and being really behind it to make sure that happens. For me, The Contractor Consultants, helping contractors, that's the coolest thing. We have a Slack channel. And just even before I hopped on here, we made three hires for companies. We're looking at sometimes 50,000, 60,000, 70,000 resumes a month across the company. That's the stuff that's really cool because I know there's a lasting impact and I know that we're bridging the gap between great candidates and great employers. And that's, at least right now, that's where I find the most excitement.
Taylor White: So for your recruitment business, so you charge a monthly fee, but do you get paid out on a success rate?
Matt DiBara: Nothing.
Taylor White: It's just here's your monthly thing catered to you and your business. And that's what it is.
Matt DiBara: 100%. I took every single hiring company that I had ever worked with, and I was like, “Okay, what did I like? What did I not like?” And we tried to just from the perspective of a contractor, build a business that contractors would like. I know it sounds crazy. It's simple. But literally, it was a whiteboard. It was like stuff I don't like, stuff I do like, how do you make this work? What would have to happen? And that's that was kind of the– I know it sounds over simple, but that's really what we did.
Taylor White: What you're saying makes a lot of sense because, for instance we went from a lot of paper to digital and to find the right company to in-house our tailgate safety forms, heavy equipment checklists, the vehicle checklist, like just everything we were doing on site, on paper, bringing it to electronic. The best software we found was from a guy who actually worked in the industry and then was like, this sucks. I need to find somebody to build me an app that can house this thing, but take my ideas and make it actually good because there's a lot of other businesses out there that do, “Hey, we take your paper stuff from the job site and we make it digital.” But it sucks because it's made from a bunch of software developers that have no idea about construction or anything like that. And that's what I like about you is you're like, “Hey, I'm from the industry, so I understand that the recruiting process sucks. So I teamed up with other people,” but also it's me driving it with my ideas being like, "Here's what sucked about it that I thought, and here's how I make it not suck.” And that's why I think it works, though, Matt.
Matt DiBara: I don't have a business background, I'm not a business guy. Don't let the buttons fool you. I'm not a business guy. So when we're building all this out, myself and my co-founder, who's a genius, he's amazingly talented and we've got a great team, but when we were building this out, we met with consultants. We were like, “Hey, this is what we're doing.” And it was amazing. These big name consultants, marketing, business consult, they're like, “Charge more money.” They're like, “You're not charging enough.” I'm like, “No, but we can make enough. This will work.” I said, “I want to be with these contractors long term.” All the advice they gave us was, contrary to the things that we were thinking. And so when we launched and really started to grow the company, the things that contractors loved about it, for example, the success fee, every consultant we talked to was like, “You should have a small amount even if it's $300, $400, $500, because that'll transfer to bottom line and bonuses.” I'm like, “Yeah, but I don't know what happens if they don't hire them. And what happens if they hire five?” It doesn't feel like– The whole purpose is to just own the hiring and do the best we can for that company. And whatever results they get, they get. And we'll tweak it every month, we'll make it better for them. But that's what we're selling. And it was contrary to everything they said.
But now when we listen to the testimonials, it's literally the opposite of the consulting meeting. What the contractors are like, “Yeah, and I love this about them.” Or “They're so easy.” Or, “I love that the recruiters all have construction experience.” It's just all these little points that they said we were obsessing over things too much that didn't matter. They're like, “Get minimum viable product out to the market.” I'm like, “No, I want to get the best product we can out to the market.” “Charge more.” I'm like, “No, I want to charge fair.” They're like, “Charge a success fee?” I'm like, “No, I want them to be excited by the fact that our fee in a year is less than one hire from a recruiter. That's important to me.” And so it's just interesting to see all that come full circle.
Taylor White: I like that going against the grain, and doing stuff the opposite of what people are saying. I remember when I first started doing Instagram and social media six years ago, and I'm from a small town. Everybody was like– My daughter's on Facebook, why are you on Facebook? And I'm like, “Well, because I think that's where every business will be in four years.” And sure enough, here we are and every company now is scrambling and they're like, “We need to do social media.” So I definitely think, especially you not listening to other people when they tell you to do something, you do the opposite. I think that's a really important lesson for people listening as well, though. It's like I always analyze and see who's giving me the advice and where they are. Should I be taking advice from them? And if the answer is yes, they're still saying no. Sometimes going with your gut and trusting yourself is always the best thing as well, too. There's nothing wrong with going against the grain if everyone goes left and you go right. Hey, nothing wrong with that.
Matt DiBara: And sometimes, you know that even if somebody has– The hard part for me was we left these meetings and they had a lot more money than us. So like that was the tough part. I was like, “Man, these are nine-figure–”
Taylor White: They're doing something right.
Matt DiBara: I'm like, I don't have that kind of wealth. So that was where I was like, it was tough. But I said, “You know what? I'd rather fail on the things I believe in than make it on something that I just can't wrap my head around.” And I said, “That's going to show when I talk to someone like you. If I'm here and I do charge a success fee, I'm going to cringe when you ask me that question because I don't believe that is the best way to model our business.” So yeah, I picked the lane that I was willing to fail at. I guess I looked at what failure could I live with and that was how I made my decisions.
Taylor White: So is the goal, I guess, for your recruitment to continue to expand and provide your services for more and more contractors to go into the UK, Australia and all these other areas and start providing value for people that need people?
Matt DiBara: 100%. The US right now, we're making a heavy focus. We're exponentially growing, which is super exciting. But yeah, I think the goal is– Because there's nothing– It's the way we've built the business. It's a no brainer for most companies. We have companies, they're making their first hire. We had a handyman, he hired his first assistant in the field all the way up to some companies that do nine figures and have like 20, 30, 40 locations. So yeah, I think for me, it's just the biggest lever pull for a company. A lot of companies are like, “I got to improve my sales team.” I'm like, “Or you hire a great sales manager.” They're like, “I got to tweak the operations.” I'm like, “Or we find you an amazing ops person that's been doing this for 10 years that knows exactly what to do.” The hiring is such a hack. I started studying a lot of really successful business people, multimillionaires and billionaires, and I looked and they still hire. I have a client of mine, he's a billionaire. And I literally watched him try and recruit somebody while I was there doing the quote. He was meeting with a financial person. He's like, “Hey, by the way, if you're not–” And I'm thinking to myself, if it's worth his time at his scale, clearly he's good at leverage, looking at what to do and what not to do, hiring is such a hack. And I think maybe a lot of the big companies don't want this out because they don't want people– Because it's a local sport when you’re typically geographically limited. Unless you've got a reason people want to fly out and move to wherever you're located.
Taylor White: Yeah, exactly. And especially around us, too. A lot of people call it poaching or whatever. And I was always like, “I'll never poach it, ever.” But now I'm like, “Dude, business is business. And if you got a guy that I know I can make happier working here, a guy or girl happier here, then, hey, I'm going to go and do that. I'm going to offer that because I have every right to do that.” What are people wanting the most? I guess when you're recruiting people, what are people most concerned about now that might shock people? Is it benefits? Is it because– When I say pension, you know what that is?
Matt DiBara: Yeah.
Taylor White: Yeah. Okay. I don't know. Sometimes with the states we have RRSPs. Do you have RRSPs and that stuff?
Matt DiBara: RRSPs? Yeah.
Taylor White: Okay. So is it that sort of stuff? Or is it strictly just that we want more money? What is it?
Matt DiBara: It's interesting. We find that, and I found this even with my company, as we're growing it, people really want to feel appreciated. And I think if you have a culture of loving the work and you can emulate a tight group, there's a lot around feeling appreciated for work. There's a certain pay scale. There's a certain level of pay that somebody wants and there's a level of consistency. People don't want to feel like they're going to sit home and worry whether or not they are going to be able to pay the bills if you've got to have consistency of work and at least market matching pay scale. So assuming those boxes are checked, the big one we see is just small little things. We know this because early on, one of the exercises we did is we created assessment called an Honest Employee Audit. So it's a 1 to 10 scale, and it's built around the psychology of what a happy employee is versus an unhappy. And so we would do this assessment for companies. We still do. And their employees would fill out 1 to 10 scale the things that they liked so we could see pay versus appreciation versus growth. And we would get these reports back and what we found in doing that exercise, and we would do another one, we would take companies and we would say, who's your top 1, 2 or 3 people? The people who have been with you the longest, they are the happiest.
In the early days, we would interview them and we would ask them, “Why have you given 10 years of your career to this company? Why have you dedicated yourself here? Why have you stayed?” And it would always be these little things. I've never once in those interviews ever heard, “Because I make $3 an hour more.” It's, “That time when my wife was pregnant and the pregnancy went bad,” and you see a grown man tearing up and he's like, “When the pregnancy went bad, we didn't know if we were going to lose the baby.” I get chills talking about it. Guy’s like, “The guy gave me two weeks off, made payments for my vehicle.” It was the things that made somebody feel really special or appreciated either daily, little things like showing up with a Gatorade on site or an ice cream or doing it like a little cookout. Or it was like a hard moment where the company stepped up and they felt like they weren't just a number that they remembered. 10 years folded into one memory. And I was like, “Would you ever leave?” And they're like, “No, I wouldn't. This is my place.” And so that was really interesting for me. I didn't expect to see in a 10-year horizon, one really big thing or a lot of little small things were the anchor that would keep somebody there.
Taylor White: I like that because there's a lot of people that will chase. I've had guys leave. They're like, “Hey, I love it here. But I'm going to get a dollar more working at the next place.” And I'm like, “Okay, great, then. Sayonara. See you later. Don't want you working here anyways.” But I think about a lot of our long term employees as well, too. And you're right, it's like, yeah, everyone can always go and find more money somewhere else because especially people need people right now. But you're right, it's a lot of the little stuff and not so much like– I remember when we first started trying to do events. Throughout the year, we do our annual camp day. So we bring everyone up to a property that we own. We bring four wheelers. We have a big skeet shooting competition with guns. We do a big barbecue. We have some drinks. We hang out. It's a good time. We have barbecues once a month here at the shop. But it's like, you can do those things and say “Oh, we do stuff for our employees,” but it's like, “Great, you're throwing a pizza party.” But it's the smaller stuff that when they need a hand or they need something, “Hey, I’m going through a tough time with my wife right now. Really could use Friday.” Blah blah blah. Payments and this and that. And you really help them out. That really goes a long way.
But the opposite side to it is I've also been burnt by employees that I have helped out personally, not even through the company. And that's me just, that's on me. I'm not blaming them. That's me being like, “Sure, I'll give you money and help you out because I feel bad.” And then two years later, they leave because some stupid thing happened and they got hung up on it. So employee side versus employer side, I see both sides of that as well, too, because those instances almost make it for me that I don't want to go out of my way and help out people because I got burnt so many times by doing that to people. So it's tough.
Matt DiBara: That one’s tough. Yeah. I mean, we found that the communication element, the Honest Employee Audit, helps a lot. We find very few people quit the day they quit. There's some little stuff. It's like, “I lost my drill and I told my super, and then he said he was going to get reimbursed. And you never did.” You're like, “Dude, if you just told me, this is not a big deal.” But construction, sometimes they don't want to complain. Or they're like, “Why should I have to ask twice?” It's like, “Well, it'd be really nice if you did because we just forgot.” It wasn't anything intentional. But the communication stuff, the Honest Employee Audits are huge because you'll catch those little little friction, almost like the rock in your shoe is the analogy I like to give. It's like you're walking, it kind of annoys you, and then one time you step down and it just hits that right spot and you're like, “Ah, I'm done.” And so if you can eliminate those friction points, it helps. But, yeah, there's, unfortunately, just some bad apples sometimes. And it's not always a good fit either.
Taylor White: I like that. The honest employee review. Yeah, I'd actually be interested in doing that. I think that that would be really cool. And it's almost crazy because you can think about some people that you're like, “I don't want to see their answers.” You know what I mean? I kind of almost cringe at it. Because I'm like, “I don't want to see–” Not because we're not paying our people or anything like that. It's nothing to do with pay, but just little things that I know it'd be like, “Oh, dude, really?”
Matt DiBara: So it's anonymous and they click buttons 1 to 10. You might know because somebody might put low on a certain number, but it'd be very difficult to know. And with companies, you'll clearly see, especially where we're building out our model, we would sit with owners or team leads, whatever the case may be, and we'd be like, “How's your culture?” “Everybody loves it here. We do this, this, this.” Okay. So we'd send this assessment out, we get it back, and you get like 4 out of 10 on pay or like 2 out of 10 on growth as an average. And it's a little awkward, but you're like, “Hey, I know you feel like everything's great, but clearly there's something here because there's 26 people and you got an average of a 30.” The good news is you know about it and we can fix it. We can put a plan in place. But I think that's the big thing. And I was like you in the early days, I was a little bit out. I was like, “Oh man, do I really want to open this door?” But sometimes it's better to know and at least have a plan for it.
Taylor White: Yeah, 100%. And because what you're saying, it's like you could be so disconnected. I could be sitting here being like, “Oh, I wouldn't be paid because I'm–” But then maybe I get the pay thing back and it's like, “Yeah, dude. You got like a 4 out of 10 on pay.” And I'm like, “Dang. Either they're all really greedy or I'm just really dumb and I need to pay everybody substantially more money,” which I'm sure everybody would love at the end of the day though, too. So I would love that as well. That would be great.
So what's next for Matt DiBara? I mean, TV show, you're on here, you're doing this sort of stuff. Where are you going? Where are you headed? What do you want to do? Where should people watch out for you?
Matt DiBara: I love the industry. You'll catch me in the industry, that's for sure. Much more on the hiring side, I think trying to get this information out, teaching people techniques and strategies. I just want to get the word out. I think it's the best investment a company can make. If you could find a customer that would buy from you every single day without fail for the next eight or ten years, for sure, you’d go out of your mind to make sure you won them over. That's like hiring. And I think what we're seeing is we're seeing a shift. I have a lot of connections to the VC world, the venture capital world, and a lot of them, the first thing they want to know is the org chart. I'm not worried about P&L. I'm not worried. They look at it but they're like– I'm not worried about that. We have our marketing dialed in. We can fix client retention, we can do all of these things. Who do we have? What's the experience? And so really when you look at building wealth and you look at the asset of the business, so much of it is the people. And so that's kind of my message and that's where you'll see me and what I'll be saying.
Taylor White: I love that. And then hopefully, we'll see you at CONEXPO in 2026.
Matt DiBara: Definitely.
Taylor White: Yeah, it’s a good time. So definitely make sure you get over there and we'll have to hang out and have a quick beer and chat in person. That would be a blast.
Matt DiBara: I'd love to Taylor, seriously.
Taylor White: All right. I appreciate you coming on today, Matt. Good chat with you. I think that you have a lot of crazy cool things coming up and I can't wait to see you coming out after Gold Rush.
Matt DiBara: Thank you. Exactly. I love Gold Rush.
Taylor White: Thank you, everybody for listening to the podcast brought to you by our good friends over at Komatsu. Thanks for coming on, Matt. We'll see you next time.
