Many equipment operators dream of starting their own excavation business, but often face big hurdles, like financial risk, the fear of past failures, and the heavy responsibility of safety on every job. Zach Taylor, a union operator who’s also building his own company, Melania Corporation, is tackling these challenges directly, driven by tough lessons from previous ventures and a powerful desire to prevent senseless tragedies in the trenches.
Today, Zach shares the nitty gritty of balancing a union job with his growing side business, the candid reasons behind his push for #TrenchSafetyTuesday, and the mindset it takes to get back up after a setback. He gets into the importance of knowing your worth, the hard calls on what jobs to take, and the crucial need for real talk about the dangers that still exist in our industry, particularly in excavation.
Topics:
- Overcoming fear and taking the leap
- Hard lessons from early business mistakes
- Smarter risk management for contractors
- Using social media to drive trench safety awareness
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Episode transcript:
Taylor White: Hey everyone. Before we get into today's episode of the CONEXPO/CON-AGG Podcast, I would like to thank our new title sponsor for the show, John Deere Power Systems. Super happy and proud to have them part of the team and we'll hear more about them later.
Let's get into today's episode. Welcome back everybody to the CONEXPO/CON-AGG Podcast. I am your host as always, Taylor White. I would like to thank our good friends over at John Deere Power Systems for once again being the awesome sponsor of the CONEXPO/CON-AGG Podcast. With me here today, I have Mr. Zach Taylor.
Zach, thanks for being on the show today.
Zach Taylor: Thanks for having me, man. It's great.
Taylor White: I love it. And I love the hat. I like the team.
Zach Taylor: Love it. Good start to the year. I'm sure the Red Sox do. They will break our heart come October, but it's all part of baseball.
Taylor White: I love it. So what area are you from? Because I saw on your website you serve… First of all, you're a dirt contract. You do water, sewer, commercial. Tell a little bit to people about what you do.
Zach Taylor: Yeah, so I do a couple of things. I'm actually in the operators union in Boston Local 4 and I do enough side work on my own that I have my own LLC. And I do, you know, light residential, water, sewer repairs, septic systems, somebody wants a driveway re-graded on a weekend, stuff like that. Because I have a daughter who does cheer and softball and I thought I was an expensive child, but she is too.
Taylor White: That's awesome. I love that. So it's a side hustle that you're doing?
Zach Taylor: Yeah, for now. I mean, I've got some bigger projects in the pipeline. Eventually, I'd like to go out on my own. I was at a Trimble Dimensions in the fall and Dane from DC Excavation told me, and not so many colorful words that I should just go do it. So here we are.
Taylor White: I love that. Dane definitely would do that. He would say something like that.
Zach Taylor: He did. Right in front of everybody.
Taylor White: Yeah, I met him when we were out in Montana. He's a pretty cool dude.
Zach Taylor: Yeah, he's a good dude.
Taylor White: I love it. What kind of machine do you run?
Zach Taylor: I prefer Caterpillar. I know John Deere is a sponsor, so thank you again for sponsoring the podcast. But most of my time is spent in Cat. I've got a pretty good relationship with the Milton Dealership from years of just different jobs where I've either been an operator or manager of a division or something before I got into the union. So I did some buying with them, and they've always been good, so a lot of Cat.
Taylor White: Awesome. So how long have you been in the industry? What got you into operating?
Zach Taylor: Many, many years ago when I was like, five, my parents wanted me to play the piano, so they signed me up for these piano lessons at a school in town. And if you looked out the window, there was one of those little, like, playground diggers that the little kids sit on. They just kind of spin around. And after like a month, the lady looked at my dad and told her that I should probably just told him to probably just take him outside and let him play with that, because he doesn't really care about this. So it started on a playground during piano lessons. And then growing up, I lived down the street from a construction company, so there were always machines and trucks rolling down the road. And I mean, what kid doesn’t want to dig holes? So, yeah, I mean, I've always just been kind of into it since I was a kid and fortunate enough to get some chances and some opportunities that I took. And here I am.
Taylor White: I love it. I feel like a lot of other people kind of share the same story. They're called, like, the window lookers. You know, you were there to do one thing, but you were looking out the window doing the other, and you ended up doing that other thing. And now you're saying you have a child, so you have family, and then, you know, it's what feeds all that. I think that’s what's important too. But that's really cool. Were you maybe the piano and being good with your fingers was like, kind of was good to be on joysticks. Maybe that related to each other.
Zach Taylor: Yeah. Really started out, you know, hot cross buns, and then, you know, greater fun.
Taylor White: Do you run, like, tilt rotators and stuff, correct?
Zach Taylor: A little bit, yeah. I had a business partner a few years ago. We started a small excavation company, and we had put Engcon on our machines. So I've got some experience with them. Most of what I do in the city is the contract that my crew has is with a division of Massachusetts Public Works State, whatever, DCR. They do sidewalks, beaches, parking lot. So we'll do a lot of, like, sidewalk reconstruction, intersection reconstruction. I'd like us to get an Engcon for what I have, but I'm not in charge of purchasing. It'd make my life so much easier. Any type of tilt rotator would because we're usually in some tight corner, jammed in trying to grade sideways or dig backwards so it'd be convenient.
Taylor White: What size machine are you operating?
Zach Taylor: Depends on what the job is. We just did a sidewalk and it was super tight, so I was in like a 5 ton, but I've had 15 ton, 8 ton. I've run bigger ones, but it just kind of depends on what the job is and what we can sit on there because it's usually up against live traffic.
Taylor White: Nice. That's awesome. Do you post any kind of social media about what you're doing?
Zach Taylor: Not so much at work because, well, it's kind of boring.
Taylor White: You might think it is. Other people might not.
Zach Taylor: You know, that's a good point. I probably should. I mean, we set a lot of curb, we build a lot of sidewalks. I put the first stick of pipe in the ground in like two years because we were resetting some drainage today. So that was exciting. 14 whole feet. So I probably should have taken a picture of that. Big, big day.
Taylor White: That was a big day, dude. You guys made some money.
Zach Taylor: Well, it's for the state, so we probably did, which is why we only did 14 ft.
Taylor White: But that's hilarious. So I'm interested and I think a lot of people actually kind of share the same thing where you're working somewhere and then off to the side, you're like, “You know what? Maybe I could go and do something on myself.” So I would like you to kind of talk about the thought process of doing that and then kind of how you manage your time. Where do you find the time to do that? And you have a daughter and cheer and all this other stuff as well too. So how do you find the time to do all that?
Zach Taylor: I don't sleep much. Before I got into the union, I've had two business finances. My first business partner I was introduced to by just an industry colleague. I was looking for something new. He was looking to expand his business. We met over dinner and that partnership went about as well as you would expect. And after a year, that went tits up. So that was a short run. After that, I just kind of took some management positions at companies. You know, I worked for a landscape excavation company. I was their excavation manager. So I was kind of on like half in the field, half client-facing, some estimating, some project management. At that point, I was kind of like running all the stuff for my old partner's company. I mean, he basically, long story short, took a bunch of money and ran. So nothing for me to do.
So I was doing that and I liked it. And that only ended because I was forced into a position I didn't want to be in. So I took this job and I was really enjoying it. But I did like working for myself. Like you said, kid, some flexibility is nice. I ended up getting a call from the business agent for the union, which is how I went from a management role to in fact the full time operating. And then my other partner was actually a really good friend of mine. He was looking to do something new and I still had all my contacts from when I was running that other division. So he had approached me about doing something together. So I was kind of just doing project management for him. And we had like four or five guys working for us. I do the estimates, the sales, PM stuff and you know, go about my day and jump on my laptop at the end of the day if I needed to. I've always wanted to have my own business, right? Good, bad or indifferent? Guess we're going to find out. But I was always scared to do it because who wants to fail? And I get a little bit of pride. And after what happened before, I was a little gun shy. That's when Dane came in, told me I was being a huge wuss. And I'm kind of in a position now where the union's great and I don't want to say anything bad about them because they've been very good to me. But when you're in my position, this is all I'm going to ever be allowed to do. I can't get promoted to be a foreman, can't be a supervisor, can't do anything else. I'm just strictly operating, which is fine. But I don't want to look back in 10 years and wish I had done something different and be like, “Wow, I really missed this opportunity to go out on my own or do something different and make a better life for me, for my kid.” That's kind of the direction I'm headed in and why.
Taylor White: That's pretty impressive. I totally speak to that. You're right. I mean, living with regret is definitely not a good thing. You don't want to look back on stuff and say, “Hey, I regret not doing this because…” And you're totally right. And a lot of people I think look to doing their own thing because they want freedom. And a lot of people enjoy that freedom with time and money and a lot of the time that comes with doing your own thing, which is, I mean, essentially key. But how do you kind of take yourself from falling down and getting back up again? You said, you know, it took a lot and you're thinking about yourself now because like you've been there, you've done that, it didn't work out and you don't want your pride to get hurt. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's only you that cares, right? Because people are actually doing stuff with their lives and doing good things with their lives and are running businesses and are successful and are just good people. They're not the people that are going to look at you and be like, “Oh, you failed. You suck.” Like they look at you and be like, “Hell, yeah, dude. Get back up and let's do this thing again.” So it's just really yourself that you need to get over. You're about hurting your pride, right? Because the people that are going to whatever, you know, say stuff or whatever, like, screw them, who cares? They're losers anyways. So who cares? You're on to bigger and better. So how do you kind of get that mentality of like, okay, I don't care about my pride and now I got to go and do my own thing. Like, what are you currently thinking about that?
Zach Taylor: You're right. I mean, I was my biggest obstacle. If you look at it from like the 10,000 foot view, I've made some really good industry friends that have all said, “Hey dude. Here's my phone number. You have a question, you call me. Well, help you out.” I've got friends around here that, “You need something? Let me know, I'll hook you up.” I borrowed stuff from people, something as simple as a trailer or I need you to literally come and help me with this lad job I got. I'm in over my head. So I've got a pretty good foundation behind me. It's just like you said, getting over your own pride, your own fear. And at this point I'm just like, either do it now or don't and stop forcing out because you're going to look back with regret. And that's just one thing I don't want. I mean, I've got my daughter looking at me. I've got myself to look at in the mirror when you wake up every morning. And you know, there's days I go to work and I'm like, “You know what? I like my job, it pays really well in the city. Like, most of the days I'm out pretty early. I mean, like you said sidewalks and curbs are not exactly physics. So I got it pretty good. And you get in kind of that comfortable feel. Then there's the days where you're like, this sucks. And you know, you just know. And it was an internal struggle of me being like, do you want to just wake up in the morning and look at yourself while you drink your coffee and say, “Yeah, you know,” and just do nothing and keep, like, being mediocre, or do you want to be better and do better? So that was kind of where I finally bit the bullet, filed for all my LLC and insurance and all that stuff, and off we go.
Taylor White: Good for you. I love it. I love the way you're talking to yourself because you're right. And you said at the beginning, too, and because you need all different types of people in this world, you need people A type, B type, C type. A type are the people that like you or I, where it's like, we want to go run our own thing. We understand that that comes with headaches, it comes with failures, it comes with stress, it comes with debt, it comes with emotion, it comes with leaving family and friends abandoned. That's all it encumbers. But then there is nothing wrong with going and just being an employee somewhere and working there and making good money and enjoying what you're doing. There's no wrong path to life because you need all different walks of life in order to make it go.
But ultimately it comes down to you. If you're happy with yourself going to work in the morning, knowing and doing and being happy with what you're doing. And it sounds like you kind of were on that right path. But I think it's really important, and I like the topic of conversation of, like, what it takes to actually go and kind of do your own thing because you're saying it right. It's like you want more, but it's also tough because you don't want to fail because, you know, your daughter's a big part of your life, and you have your daughter looking at you and you don't want to fail. And your daughter would be like, “Well, dad, what the heck? What are we doing?” But you want more for your daughter, and everybody wants more for their family. And, you know, ultimately that's why we do it. So what characteristics and what traits do you think moving forward this time around, are you going to take a little more serious or not? I know that it wasn't you, but necessarily, what are you doing different this time around?
Zach Taylor: I mean, I learned a lot. I can't say it wasn't all me. Like, obviously, the first go around I wasn't taking my own money. The second go around, the reason that we split, we just had a difference of opinion of the way the business wanted to go. And because I wasn't there every day to see the headaches, I got my own headaches, obviously, just doing what I had to do. But I wasn't there every day. I didn't have to manage the cash flow, I didn't have to manage. So I was pushing a lot harder. And you know, everybody says it, when you first start out in the business, you say yes to a lot of things you shouldn't say yes to because you need the money, right?
Taylor White: Oh, yeah.
Zach Taylor: And I was starting to fall into that, like not valuing us as a company, like from a just a value of who we were standpoint. I was turning us into just a yes company. Oh, you need that done? Yeah, no problem. We can get you a bill, we'll get you a change owner. We'll take care of it. And like everything just started to become, from my end, a comedy of errors, if you will, biting off more than we could chew because I was super excited about it. Probably should have sat down and taken a look back at some of the work we were bidding and said, “No.” But you really want that job because it's a cool job, it's a high profile job and people are going to see our name on the fence driving by and be like, “Those are the guys we want.” Meanwhile, on the other side of that canvas fence, we're all just beating each other because we're pissed.
So from a management standpoint, really taking a step back, valuing yourself, valuing what you bring to your client, what your capabilities really are, like real honest conversation of, “Yes, I can do this.” I talked to some people when I had said I was going to file for an LLC and they were like, “Oh, great. I got a five-house subdivision I need done.” And I'm like, “That would be really cool. But really I'm in the business of like garages additions and grading driveways right now.“ I would love to be able to do that. That would be sick. But I have to literally look at that and say, “You know, that's not in the wheelhouse.” You can't appease this person, you can't appeal to what they want because that's not where you're at right now. So really understanding, really what I took from that was understanding more about how a business grows. I mean, you have to take a risk, right? You can't just sit there and do the same thing and expect a different result. So at some point you have to take the risks, but you have to be a little bit more calculated. And I want to say towards the end of our last venture, I was less calculated and more excited to move up to that next job and buy that next piece of equipment than really taking a step back and looking at it as a business owner and saying, “This is where we're at and this is the lane that we need to stay in.” Because stretching ourself way out is just going to be bad for business.
Taylor White: Yeah, risk management. I feel like with what you're saying though, it's really hard to say no when you're an alpha type personality, you're a go-getter, you're a driver. It's hard to say no to people because you want to consistently build your business. And especially during, you know, like when we had a massive boom, you know, pandemic times when things were like going insane here as well in construction, I mean, there was so much work going on and we had the same issue. I mean, we've been around for 50 years, so we were able to kind of stop ourselves and be like, “Holy, this is getting a little out of hand. We need to figure out what we're doing with management first before we kind of, you know, keep going.” But for guys that are listening, that are just kind of starting out or wanting to do their own thing or maybe they're slipping and they feel like they're slipping, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on going maybe too far on one end of risk and then dialing it back. What advice would you give to people about risk management?
Zach Taylor: Take a personal inventory. So a lot of my go, go, go type A personality comes from, I played basketball my whole life, all the way through college. I was super competitive. I wanted to win at everything. And that's great in business because you push and fight, you know, adversity, you learn to deal with that. All those things are good. But you really have to take a self inventory, be honest with yourself about where you're at, what your goals are and have a real, solid plan of how you're going to get from point A to point B. Because on paper, yeah, it looks great. We were doing $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 custom homes. And then somebody threw a huge 10,000, 15,000 square foot commercial office space at me with a 35,000 square feet of parking lot, massive septic system, like whole site prep, clearing, demo of the old building that was there. And I looked at that and went, “Wow, we can really do that.” What had happened was the GC that we did that for, that general contractor was doing a hotel down the street, an improvement project. And they asked us to step in because the guy that was there wasn't really set up to do it. He was like a landscaper in the likes of that. So the PMO's friend who calls me asked me to come over and look at it, see if we can finish it up. And it was commercial, but really it wasn't your typical commercial, big building space. We were on a commercial site fixing water lines, grading part of a parking lot. We dug a footing for a wall that was going around this big custom pool, did some drainage. Like nothing outside of our scope, but it was big dollars because it was all commercialized work. So we looked at that and said, all right, cool. So if we did that much money on that project, this project's pretty much the same. But the scope of work was completely different. And it’s not that we couldn't dig the holes. We had technology in our machines. We had tilt rotators, we had a couple of trucks. Equipment wise, we were set up for it. If you looked at just what was sitting on paper. But from a business development, from a growth standpoint, looking at, like you said, the management, it was really just me and my friend that had real site experience. Most of the people we hired were green because that's who we could get. And I don't want to say nose dive, but we pushed ourselves in that direction a little aggressively on my end without really looking at the company as a whole again, self inventory. And it kind of burned us.
Taylor White: How hard was it? Like, do you remember, like the last day where you're like, “All right.” Well, I'm not doing this anymore. How hard was that?
Zach Taylor: Well, it was kind of a unique situation. The project that we were on had some issues, some of which were not our fault. A couple things I didn't catch that was on me. The superintendent on that site was doing some things behind the scenes and then trying to pass the buck down the contractor line. And when I finally caught up to it, we were owed some money. And the amount that we had billed for was like sufficiently reduced because something didn't get approved, but we had already done it. And that kind of pushed a little bit of a breaking point between me and my buddy because I said we'd do it. He didn't really want to do it yet, but we had to to keep the project moving. And we limped through the end of it and we got into one more project and he looked at me and said, “I can't do this anymore. Like this type of work is going to kill me.” And I said, “Fine, no problem. I got us this last project that's worth X number of dollars. It's in this time frame. It's really similar to the hotel.” Like, we had some debt, we wanted to get off the books. We had just, you know, a hard project that we needed to get cleared up from tripping our way out of that last job. And I was like, well, if we do this last one, we'll take this, we'll clear out, we can drop back. And that one started to go off the rails because he wasn't feeling it. And then he and I started to get some attention. We just came to the end of it and I just kind of faded away. One day my email didn't work. That's how I figured out that he was all set.
Taylor White: Dang, that's crazy.
Zach Taylor: I got a text from another project manager, and she was like, “Your email got returned.” I was like, “It did?” And I opened up my phone and it was like, “Please enter a new password.” I'm like, okay. So I guess that conversation from last week went a little farther than I thought, but I guess we're done. But it was hard, though. It was hard because he was a friend of mine.
Taylor White: Dang. Well, business sometimes can ruin friendships.
Zach Taylor: Luckily, I will say we have kissed and made up, if you will.
Taylor White: Wow, Congrats. I love that. I frickin love that dude. Like, oh, man. The ending there relates, like business and personal. I always tell people you have to separate the two. One of my closest friends, we do a lot of business with, and generally it's him feeding us work. Lately I've been able to give him a little bit of work and he beats me up on price, man. Like, we get into yelling matches at a round table. I'm being like, “You don't want to see me make any money.” And he's like, “No, dude. Like this is just going right.” And we get into it. And at the end of the day, we're still buds. And I love that because that to me is the industry. Like construction is so screwed up that it's like you can work with your buddies or whatever.
Zach Taylor: We’re going to fight at lunch and then we're going out to dinner afterwards.
Taylor White: Exactly. That's how you have to be in this industry. And a lot of people are going to be like, “No, that's what's wrong with construction. We got to change it.” But that's what makes it so awesome. That's what makes it awesome. Like, I remember being on the job site when I first started working here and I was the boss's son at 15, 16 years old. I was the boss's son at 16. Like I had a nice truck and I'd show up and I was a— and that's why I ended up leaving and moving and working somewhere else for a bit. But I remember the guys in the job sites, like we would get into it and we would like physically fight on the job sites and then all get in the same truck to go to Subway for lunch and just be eating a football meatball Marinara. And like 20 minutes later I'm like, “Hey, that’s what’s up.” And they'd be like, “Yeah.”
Zach Taylor: We're going to fight at lunch, losers are going to buy beers after work. So I mean, that's kind of how it goes.
Taylor White: That's what's awesome about the industry.
Zach Taylor: It's like the underlying part of the industry that nobody wants to talk about. But really that's what it is.
Taylor White:
Yeah. I mean, let's cut down on the physical altercations.
Zach Taylor: Yeah. Not recommending you punch your co-workers.
Taylor White: No, of course not. Not the point of the story, exactly. The point of the story is like, I love that construction can be this place where people like you can have some big emotion. But everyone at the end of the day, the all around goal is to get the work done, go home to our families, provide for our families and we carry on with life. So moving forward and going forward, how old is your daughter actually?
Zach Taylor: She'll be 10 in June.
Taylor White: Wow, man. How do you manage then kind of trying to doing everything that you're doing right now, but also making sure that you're spending enough time with her and doing her stuff?
Zach Taylor: Her mother and I aren’t together so we've got a shared custody schedule. So basically, I know these days of the week are mine, these days of the week are hers. That's pretty much how it goes. It's been cut and dry. I spent a lot of money in court to get there. So I know that these days this week, these days next week, all you can. And I plan my schedule around that. Her mom and I get along pretty good. So, you know, if we have something going on or I have something going on, we could trade a Saturday here or there. You know, do what we got to do to make it work. I mean, usually the way it goes is I schedule most of my side stuff around, you know, know what my time is with her. And then if I really need to make a move, we're in a place where we can just trade off, like I said, or we help each other out when we need to so it works there.
Taylor White: Nice. So I know you were saying Dane was kind of pushing you. So when's the tipping point for you to officially be like, “All right, I'm doing it. I'm done. I'm doing this 100% now.”
Zach Taylor: Soon. I had an interesting conversation with a guy who owns a site work company. One of the softball dads that I'm friends with wanted me to do some work for him. And we had just got to talk. And I told him what I was thinking. He's like, ‘Oh, I met a guy you can talk to.” I'm like, “Okay.” So this guy called me. He thought I wanted to just change jobs. So I met with him. He thought he was having a job interview. Sorry. Appreciate you. You got some cool stuff. You're building cool stuff. But no, sorry. So we got to talking and he's been in business for like 25 years. He had the same guys with him forever. Like, nice little, little business. He's got his niche, and he was looking for somebody to take over his business. So he pitches me this whole sales thing, like, because he, again, thinks he's having a job interview, like, what the potential is. So I let him get through that. And then I was like, “Well, I don't know what Joe told you, but I'm trying to go out my own.” So then we had the secondary conversation about work that he wanted to sub to me. He does like, Chick-fil-A and Starbucks. He's got some, like, housing project type work. We went and drove around one the other day where it's like four parking lots. They're getting ripped up and redone. Roadways getting ripped up and redone, raised some frames and covers, stuff like that. And then he gets like, “I'm sure you do a few hundred thousand dollars jobs for your clients, and then all of a sudden they need a $20,000 trench dug tomorrow, and you're going to go do it, even though you're going to lose money because you pulled out of another job.” He's like, “I get these all the time.” So I'm in the middle of a negotiation, if you will, with him for a few jobs he has coming up. And then the developer who built the subdivision that my daughter lives in has four or five land deals he's closing on, and that should close in like a month on the first one. And then he wants to talk about giving me the house lots. We have a couple big companies that come in. They'll do all the infrastructure road work. We do all the stubs. And then he uses other people for the house lots, because they don't want that word, I guess. But I'd say probably in the next couple of months, I've got some decent irons in the fire. I got a few standalone jobs. I've got contracted already, so I'll pencil those in between softball games and driving to Boston. But I'd say probably by summer.
Taylor White: That's awesome. Do you work in the winter time? Do you guys do layoffs? Because you get like, winter just like we do up here in Canada.
Zach Taylor: Yeah.
Taylor White: Super cold, lots of snow.
Zach Taylor: Well, snow's been hit or miss the last few years for us, but it's been cold. We got a fair amount this year. We plow a little bit. We have a handful of contracts, so that takes up some time. And then the sidewalk project that we were on was all asphalt, so we were able to buy winter blend mix. So we did some work over the winter just kind of putzing along, but I usually work year round. I don't take a layoff.
Taylor White: Nice. That's awesome. Yeah, you definitely got to do that. What's the name of your business?
Zach Taylor: Melania Corporation.
Taylor White: Melania Corporation. Where's Melania come from?
Zach Taylor: My daughter's name.
Taylor White: Yeah, I was just going to say, I'm like, it has to be your daughter's name. I love that. That's awesome. What does she think of that?
Zach Taylor: I gave her a business card, and she just looked at me over her iPad, was like, “Thanks. Cool.” Build the legacy for you, kid. I'll get you some pink T-shirts. It's got your name on it. I don't care. Pull into Starbucks. Okay, good talk. I mean, you got kids? How old are your kids?
Taylor White: I have a four-year-old daughter. I have a two-year-old son. And in five days from now, I'm having another child.
Zach Taylor: Oh, congratulations.
Taylor White: Yeah, thank you. And it's going to be another girl.
Zach Taylor: I mean, if you haven't figured it out by now, the four-year-old daughter— I'm sure you figured it out, but it gets worse. Yeah, I'm no longer dad, I'm just bruh. “Bruh, I need a Starbucks. I want a caramel frappe, no coffee.” I'm like, “Where did you learn to order that? I get Duncan's black. You walk up and you want a caramel double frappe, no coffee, extra cream, whipped.”
Taylor White: Okay. This next generation is something else. Eh?
Zach Taylor: Oh, it’s insane. I'm like, I go out and like eat dirt or something. I got a Nintendo 64 when I was in like 8th grade and I thought I was the man. She has a phone at my house, she has an iPad at both of her mom and my house, she has an Apple watch. I'm like, I had a Mickey Mouse watch. What do you mean? You're texting your grandma? Yeah, I didn't even know. I didn't even know how to read the thing. It was Mickey Mouse and the hands like went like that. She goes on vacations with her mother like three times a year. I'm taking her to Florida. You live the life of Riley. Like my vacation was going outside play with friends. It was tropical when the sun was out.
Taylor White: These days, it is crazy. And you're right. That whole portion of my life— I mean, my daughter's like four going on, I feel like, you know, teenager now. Even just what she does like roll her eyes or look at me and be like, oh. She'll hear something that my wife says and then she'll like repeat it to me. I'm like, “You can't say that to me.” Like, I'm your father. You can't tell me that. Like, I'm lazy. Like, “Why don't you clean out, dad?” And I'm like, “What? You can't say that to me.”
Zach Taylor: Does she call? She's yelling the other day and I go upstairs and she's propped up in her room on one of those, like, Yogi Bow fancy beanbag chairs that she had to have. So I got it for her for Christmas. I'm a sucker. She's got her feet up on something. She's got her iPad this way. So she's playing a game. She's on FaceTime with her friend. And I'm like, “What are you doing?” “I'm FaceTime with Abby. We're playing Roblox,” or whatever. I'm like, “Oh, well, what do you need?” “I'm thirsty.” “Well, God also blessed you with two legs. Walk into the kitchen and get a glass of water.” “I want Dr. Pepper.” “Where did you get Dr. Pepper?” I had it at so and so's house. Well, now I got to call so and so's Mom. I don't know why you're drinking Dr. Pepper. Here's water. Like, go get it. Yeah. Kids aren't kids anymore.
Taylor White: They're going up too quick. Another big part. Obviously you're a machine operator, Zach, and a big part of that is safety. I know that we have CONEXPO coming up, so I'd love to hear you talk about that and give the listeners at home a little bit of an earpiece about that, because we all need more of it, to be honest with you.
Zach Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I think right after the last show, 2023, I saw an article and it was this guy, he got killed, obviously, is where this is going. Using a 12-foot deep sewer trench residential application. And I saw the article just in my algorithm, some of the people I've followed on LinkedIn. But the picture pissed me off. And I've got it buried in my Instagram somewhere. But you see this guy and you can tell he's deep and they clearly dug the hole with a mini, because it's just this narrow, skinny trench. And you see this guy down there, like, looking up, holding the shovel, smiling. And they said five minutes later he was dead. And it just really pissed me off. So I made a post about it. We see it all the time. Trench collapse, guy dies in trench collapse. Man rescued from trench collapse. Crew dug out a trench collapse. And it's like, how many times is this going to happen before, like, we do something about it? And I saw that picture and immediately in my head I was just like, you're looking down in this hole. There's the guy holding the shovel, you can see the sewer pipe that he's trying to connect or fix or whatever he was doing. No ladder, no box. And somebody was standing above him, just taking a picture. Obviously, because you thought, “Holy, this guy's down deep in a hole. I got a picture of this.” And then that was the last picture anybody ever had. So I made this post and I was just basically like, “This is your company and this is the culture that you put for your workers. Like, F you. If you're a worker that needs a job that bad that you're willing to do some stupid like this, there's somebody that'll hire—” I just went on a rant, posted it. And I woke up in the morning and I had like, I don't know how many reshares, 500 likes, 100 something comments. Like, for me, I'm like 98,000 followers from going viral. So for me, that was like viral to the moon. I was stoked. I was like, “Wow, People really took a liking to them.”
And Missy had shared it and she made a story about it. Missy Scherber. And she messaged me privately and was like, you know– It just happened that it was a Tuesday. Like just by chance, she goes, “You should start doing trench safety Tuesday and keep it going.” She's like, “What would you think of that?” And I'm like, yeah, I mean, I think we do. I mean, tragedy happens. People post about it, they wake up the next morning, they go on with their day, right? Police officer gets killed in the line of duty. Tragic. I have friends and family that are officers. You post it, you say, when I get up, I have my coffee in the morning, I go to my job, but I work in this industry. And everybody talks about can't get new people, bringing up the next workforce, labor shortages. And I'm like, well, if you stop killing the ones you have, first of all, that's a good place to start, right? Second of all, how are you supposed to attract people into the industry when every day you're seeing death that's preventable? 2022, 39 trench collapse deaths, it's like one a week. That doesn't count people that were rescued or were seriously hurt, maimed and can't work anymore.
Taylor White: So unavoidable.
Zach Taylor: Completely. Completely. And I just got pissed. So I started making these posts like every week. And I didn't want to just be doom and gloom, so I started getting posts from like, Shea Stutzman. His company's phenomenal. They're huge on trench safety. They just did their own in-house training. They dug up their backyard, taught all their guys, rigging, placing boxes, different types of shorts, all that to kick the year off. It was awesome. He called me, sent me some videos. It was awesome. So I started getting photos. You know, people would send me photos of dump they'd see or that was going on. But then I was asking people for like, “Hey, I know you do cool stuff.” Like the guys at North Star PE, they do huge pipeline work, great stuff. Groundwork safety systems up by you and somewhere in Canada, I forget exactly where they are.
Taylor White: Alberta maybe.
Zach Taylor: They've been wicked cool. They make really cool trench boxes that are like high tensile steel or something like 50% less the weight for the size and they have a really cool product. So I started getting stuff from other people to show like what you can use, what products you use, here's some tips. And you know, I'm not by any means like the most competent person to be inspecting a trench. I'm not an OSHA guy, I'm not a safety guy. I'm just a guy that got pissed off and I got sick of seeing it so I just kind of kept up with it. I'm not going to take all the credit, but if you look at the last few years, we went from 39 in 2022 to 14, 12 trench collapsed deaths. In 2024, it was like a 70% reduction. So getting relatable messaging out to people I think is important and just keeps the conversation going.
Taylor White: It's more knowledge out there, more people like you that are actually like talking about it. Because when you put numbers to it and stats to it, when you said 39, like it's so unavoidable, dude. Like it's so easy. It's just a crazy thing because you see the videos on TikTok and Instagram and I see them too, the reels and it's like– I saw one the other day of a trench collapse and these guys were like shoveling their buddy out and they're like, “John, John, you hear us?” And I'm watching the video and like first of all I'm thinking, who the hell is thinking I need to video this? First of all, like, can we get that out of the way? Like who stands and goes, “Okay, yeah. Oh, buddy's suffocating.”
Zach Taylor: John might or might not make it.
Taylor White: Who does that anyways? That's like insane to me when I'm watching this thing and it's always like, “Ah, dude, I could get down in there and I'm in and out in 15 seconds.” Like, I just got to go through that one quick connection. I just got to do that one thing, dude. And it's just like, boom. You don't see it. It happens. I love that you're talking about it. I love that you're bringing attention to it, man.
Zach Taylor: Thanks. I mean, I've got got some really cool stories, too. Like, my sister worked at a level 1 trauma center in Western Mass. And she sent me an article about this girl that got buried out there. And I actually found her on Instagram, and I messaged her and talked to her for a little while. I made a post about her. She was Army Reserves, I think. She was training to be a helicopter pilot. She had a summer break before she went to pilot school or, you know, whatever the next phase of her training was. So she applied at a local construction company. Just wanted a job, something physical, get out in the sun, learn something new, whatever. And they told her she was going to get all kinds of training, and they gave her this and that, whatever. And she was there for a week. And on like the seventh day she was employed there, she got buried. Broke collarbone, bunch of ribs. She lost her spleen. She broke something in her pelvis, punctured— I can't remember the technical name, but the big vein that runs through your body, Vena cava. She had like a 2% chance to live, right?
She's an army pilot now. She survived, but she had no clue what she was even getting into. It was their first week on the job and they were like, ‘Yeah. Go do that connection real quick. Okay. Right down the hole and bang, bang.” That's the part that pisses me off. I've shared the Atlantic drain picture of the guy kneeling, like, holding his head in all the water a bunch of times. I was right in Boston, and my friend owns a trenching, shoring road plate type rental house. And the guy that owned that company had come in to talk to him about renting a trench box. And I talked to him, he's like, the guy came into my office, talked to me about what I had told me what he was doing. I walked him out back to the yard, showed him what we had. We could deliver it in the morning. He touched it and said he'd call me later. Walked off, never called me. The guy died the next day. Two guys died the next day. That's the stuff that pisses me off. Like, if you don't know, that's okay. But the people that you're working for damn well better know, and they better make sure that you're at least comfortable with what you're doing or not put you in that position. And educating people, I guess, and making things relatable for people that may not know is kind of what I'm trying to kick across, make it as relatable as possible.
Taylor White: What are you seeing out there right now? I know you're talking about some. Some systems that are 50% lighter and whatnot. But are there some advancements in trench box safety? Are there different systems that you're seeing that are like that needs to get out there because that's a really cool system.
Zach Taylor: Well, I like the groundworks because their boxes, they're 40% lighter than your regular steel boxes, spreaders, and they've got sliders on there. You can turn some of their boxes into manhole boxes. Like, they'll get wide enough when you have plates in. They've got sleeves that you can put in the sleeves of the rod, work panels. You can build a custom box out of their stuff. They've got ladders and stairways built into their boxes. I mean, they just look really cool. And the way that they assemble, you're not picking up half a shield and trying to set it on a wobbly spreader. Like they're all built together. And then if you watch their videos, you pick from the middle and you stand it up and they just slap and lock in, and you put your pins in and away you go.
Taylor White:
And it's called groundworks?
Zach Taylor: Groundworks Safety Systems.
Taylor White: Nice. I love that. That sounds awesome.
Zach Taylor: Yeah, Jim and Danielle, they're wicked cool people, but I'm just trying to make it relatable.
Taylor White: Yeah, 100%. I love that. And you totally are. Someone needs to talk about that sort of stuff because there's a lot of times where guys just try to be cowboys, like I said, right?
Zach Taylor: You've all watched, like, the safety videos from the ‘80s and the guy slips in the oil and the shin, and just as the fork truck backs over him and, oh, Jim lost his leg because the ground was— Those days, I shouldn't say they're over, but those days are over. If you're talking about what can change in safety, like making— whatever your claim to fame is going to be, mine happens to be trench safety— making that relatable, making it interesting, making it something that people want to buy into. People have asked me, like, "Oh, I want you to be a safety guy somewhere.” Well, I don't really want to do that, but I would love to be able to get to the point where whether it's United, Groundworks, you know, some sort of a manufacturer, equipment manufacturer, we can all come together, kind of do what Shea did with his team. You guys could probably do it, but a company smaller than you might not have the bandwidth to go dig up their backyard and train their guys for the day. They just don't have all that. They rent their boxes, they have some, you know, whatever. But set up, like, basically a training center and just travel around and do that. And you can, you know, pay a nominal fee. We'll give you guys lunch, and we'll walk you through every step of the process with product experts and subject matter experts and show everybody how to do it hands on, and just make that available to companies so that everybody can get certified in some capacity so they know what they're doing. And I think you'd see a lot of this go away.
Taylor White: I love that. My brain, when you said that, it's just like firing. Being like, okay, if we dug up the back section of our yard, I could probably get Cooper Rental to drop off boxes, and I could tell them that it was for training, and they'd be like, “Yeah, sure. Give me some sort of discount so I'm not paying full pop.” And I could even reach out to other local guys on our street and be like, “You guys want to, like, set up something where we all together do something at our yard one day? Because we got 11 acres here. Let's set something up.” I love that. Just from you saying that, it made me think about that. I love that.
Zach Taylor: I mean, when I saw what Shea was— I wasn't sure how to go about, like, you know, how do you spread it out other than show pictures on Instagram. But just to be able to do that, I've had people telling me I should set up. I don't know if we consider, like, a nonprofit or, you know, however it would go, but just, like, take investment dollars from some of these big manufacturers, some of these resellers, you know, whoever, and put a package together and be able to— I mean, people charge for training for stuff all the time. Why not this? And just be able to go take advantage of the fact that— take advantage might be the wrong word— but take advantage of the need people that might not be able to have the 11 acres to dig out back or live next to somebody that wants to let them come over while they dig out back and have them come to a safe facility and learn and, you know, eliminate a lot of the lack of education. I don't think we'll ever get to a net zero just because accidents do happen. But if we can push the initiative further and make it so easy for people to not have that accident happen, I think you'll see the numbers drop way off like they already are.
Taylor White: Well, I'm glad we talked about trench box safety. You're the guy.
Zach Taylor: Now, I got you thinking. I am the guy. You're going to have a big barbecue out back with all your neighbors digging holes.
Taylor White: I just spent the first 30 minutes of this podcast talking to him about his side hustle business when he was thinking internally, is he going to start asking me about trench box safety? Because that's what I'm here to talk about. So I'm glad that we talked about that. And in lieu of the show coming up in next March and tickets going on sale in just a couple months in August, so make sure to stay tuned for that, sign up for the newsletter. But hopefully they can learn more about trench box safety from Zach Taylor. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate it.
Zach Taylor: That's the goal. That's the goal. No problem, man. Thank you.
Taylor White: Thanks for coming on.
