Running a specialized construction business, particularly in sectors like excavation and septic services, is fraught with unique hurdles. Many dedicated owners find themselves struggling to cut through the competitive noise, establish a truly memorable brand, or skillfully navigate the complex interplay of business growth, intense competition, and sound financial strategy. It's easy to feel like just another undifferentiated truck on the road.
But what if there was a way to transform these common industry challenges into distinct, powerful advantages?
Today, Taylor is joined by Dervin Witmer, the visionary behind Dig-it Excavating and Pump That Septic. Dervin candidly reveals how a combination of strategic, memorable branding, a savvy and modern approach to digital marketing, and a series of bold, calculated business moves allowed him to significantly stand out from the crowd, command premium pricing, and ultimately build a highly reputable and consistently thriving company.
Topics:
- Integrating family into your business
- Strategies for standing out and attracting quality clients
- Niche specialization vs. diversification
- Navigating seasonal work and competition
Watch now:
Listen now:
Listen on your favorite app: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube
Subscribe to the CONEXPO-CON/AGG YouTube channel to be notified of new episodes.
Join more than 54,700 industry peers who receive construction industry news and trends each week. Subscribe to CONEXPO-CON/AGG 365.
Episode transcript:
Taylor White: Welcome back, everybody, to The CONEXPO-CON/AGG Podcast. I’m your host, as always, Taylor White. I do want to remind everybody that the countdown is officially on for CONEXPO-CON/AGG 2026, as it is returning to Vegas March 3-7. It is honest when I say this, it is going to be bigger and better than ever. There’s going to be over two thousand exhibitors, 2.9 million square feet of equipment, tech, tools, and the brightest minds in construction. Tickets are going to go on sale in August, so now is the time to sign up for updates and get those discounts. Check the link in the description and make sure that you’re on the list. I also want to thank our amazing partners over at John Deere Power Systems for helping us out today and helping us out on the podcast and being the sponsor of this show.
With me today, I have the one and only Dervin Witmer, who has amazing branding around his machine, and I can’t wait to talk to him about that. Dervin, thank you for being here today.
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, it’s a pleasure.
Taylor White: We were just chatting before, and, uh, you’re- you know, Dig-it Excavating out of, uh, Michigan. We’re very close in relation to geographically. I was just checking you out on Instagram, and you have quite the following.
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, we got into it fairly early, before kind of a lot of other construction companies, at the recommendation of my brother-in-law. So, it’s been kind of a fun digital journey.
Taylor White: That’s really cool. So, you guys are out of Cassopolis?
Dervin Witmer: Cassopolis.
Taylor White: Cassopolis. Okay. I wasn’t going to try to pronounce it. So, you guys had your business in here, or you have your business here, Dig-it Excavating, and then I guess in two thousand six, you added Pump That Septic service kind of to your brand?
Dervin Witmer: Yep.
Taylor White: Oh, very cool. So, you guys specialize in what? You guys are kind of the same as us, like excavation and septic systems?
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, our bread and butter is really septic, uh, like complete septic service. Now, we do get into excavating a little bit of site work, a little bit of driveways, and do some demolition. But yeah, our bread and butter really has become the a full-service septic company. I started out as excavating. I’m like, I got into the- the pumping side kind of accidentally because the jobs I I was on at the beginning required some tank abandonment and and stuff like that. So, it was kind of an accident, and and then all of a sudden it was like, wait a second. You can’t advertise for a septic company with big excavators and piles of dirt, but then you kind of get into that the dirt and the digging once once you find some problems with septic systems. So, they kind of feed into each other. So, it was kind of like, let’s split this out. Let’s market it two different ways: kind of a "Mr. Clean"-type septic company, and the Dig-it, just some cool, top-of-mind, you know, easy-to-remember names and and stuff like that. And it was always because of the the change in advertising for digital, you know, let’s- let’s come up with some names that are easy for Google searches and, you know, kind of call-to-action words and stuff like that.
Taylor White: What made you want to do this in two thousand five? Start your own thing?
Dervin Witmer: My background is actually electric motor industry. Worked with my father. I was a third generation in an electric motor repair facility in Pennsylvania. Was married, uh, for about six years, and we’re thinking about, uh, moving back to Michigan, where my wife was from. And I always enjoyed working for excavators in my area. Did that a couple- couple times in high school. And we built a couple houses, my dad, brothers, and I. And I was always in the machines. I was always either clearing the roads, you know, for the subdivision or laying pipe or digging the basement. So, you know, I was kind of like, it’d be kind of cool to start an excavating company, but there was a lot of competition in southeastern Pennsylvania where we were. You know, I was working for my dad, had a pretty good job there, managing that facility. So, it was more like, if we’re going to do a fresh start in another area, I think I would enjoy the outdoor, you know, the machines, um, and dealing with people.
And so, in two thousand four, we sold our house in Pennsylvania that we had built and moved to southern Michigan. I worked for a friend of mine doing framing at first, just to kind of figure out, hey, is there any opportunities? And then then there was, about a year later, they put in a sewer plant around here that serviced five All Sports Lakes. They were trying to clean up. So, that was built in Mottville, and they ran the sewer to all these these lakes. And then the opportunity was there to hook the houses up to the- to tap in the street. So, that was kind of my break. I had a couple contractor friends that said, "Hey, we want to stay, you know, kind of the builder in these projects and the remodeler, but, you know, we’re not really an excavator. So, we’ll feed you the excavating side and septic." And so that’s what I did for, I think I did about 150 homes in the first year, year and a half, where we were just short little runs. But sometimes in water tables, sometimes in really tight situations. But at the end of that year and a half, that was- and I started to get into some septic systems and stuff. I was like, man, that was hard. I mean, those little jobs sometimes are just, you got to do them the right way, you got to do them safely. And I was just glad to be away from buildings and away from water and away from- from utilities every single day, you know? It’s just nice to have a little more room.
And that’s where the pumping came in. Bought an old pump truck from a well driller friend of mine, or he recommended a the unit from a friend of his. So, just a little old Chevy TopKick or something with a propane tank on the back that was converted to a septic truck.
Taylor White: No way!
Dervin Witmer: Yeah.
Taylor White: That’s wild.
Dervin Witmer: So, anyway, it wasn’t much of a looker, but it- it carried the liquids.
Taylor White: That’s cool.
Dervin Witmer: One of the fun things was I always painted the trucks, even though they were old, and put the- the Dig-it logo on them to begin with. And so, it was always like big; you could see the name, you know, driving down the road. So, that was kind of our- my foray into excavating. And I worked seven years by myself before I finally, um, hired my brother-in-law because it- you grow to a certain point where it’s just like, I do not love this anymore. So, when it was that point, I was like, you know, I think I need help. So, that was the best thing I did. And then it just- we just kept adding a few here and a few there. And my kids started to grow up and join the company too. So, at one point a year ago, I had three of my kids working for me, and then my daughter got married. So now there’s two boys yet. But, and then I have six kids total, but-
Taylor White: That’s awesome.
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, I hear you talk proudly about your kids, and I’m like, yeah, it’s awesome.
Taylor White: Yeah, it is. I just had my third a month ago, so I’m right in the thick of it.
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, for sure. Three’s the busiest, I say. After that, it doesn’t matter anymore. Well, I ask my wife, but the busyness doesn’t get any worse because, you know, once the kids get a little older, there’s a little more help around, you know, and it’s kind of- it’s the camaraderie in a big family is- is awesome.
Taylor White: Oh, I totally, 100 percent agree that it is awesome. And so, you said your kids are- like, they were helping out in the business?
Dervin Witmer: Yeah. So, as far as my kids, uh, working in the company, you know, Lucian, he’s the oldest and the first one that got, uh, his CDL license after he came back from a couple years of, uh, Bible college. And he tore his ACL, and he was like, "I got to get this thing operated." And, uh, thankfully, I think it was his right knee, so he could still clutch. But he said, "It’s kind of hard getting in and out of the truck." So, he suggested, you know, that he go full-time because he had been doing our video editing and shooting, you know, just educational YouTube videos and stuff on the septic side, because that was one of the things that I saw was lacking in septic companies is- is any kind of digestible information for homeowners that don’t know anything. And so, we’re like, "Look, let’s be the- let’s be the authority on that in the area."
So, anyway, he tore his ACL, had to go in for surgery, and he’s like, "How about going full-time as a marketing, you know, manager?" And so, I was like, "Okay, let’s try it." And, uh, you know, that’s the interesting thing about having your kids in a business is that they start to think differently than you, you know? It’s like, you have different ideas than your dad had for the company, you know? And this thing is my baby, but my- you know, my kids are, you know, working their way into it. It’s not their baby, but if they have a corner that they come to me and they say, "Hey Dad, I think I can contribute in- in this capacity in a different way, in a greater way." I’m- and at the moment I was like, "Ooh, I don’t know." You know, it wasn’t my idea. But I was like, "Let’s try it." You know? He went, uh, got the surgery, went full-time marketing, and, you know, then the search for other drivers comes and stuff like that. But it’s been good. You know, we- we took some courses with, uh, Marcus Sheridan on, uh, They Ask, You Answer and "Endless Customers Now" and stuff. And that’s what really got him kind of, you know, let’s update our website with information that is going to, you know, the AI is going to gather and make us the information hub of the area where the industry. He’s taken the marketing side of our company to the next level, which was cool to see.
My oldest daughter, since she was a teenager, was answering the phone. She was our dispatcher. So, you know, she- she was doing 4-H in school and stuff like that, and she was answering the phone because we homeschooled our kids. So, there was some flexibility there. So, whether she was in the- in the shop, usually in the afternoons, you know, while she was in high school. And then, uh, you know, she would take calls in between, you know, doing school and- and other activities and stuff like that. And, you know, it’s just kind of fun.
When you’re in the septic industry, the kids came to me and said, "You know what? Um, they like working for me, but how do you bridge this idea of, like, my dad runs a septic company?" Because, so, like, "Well, what are you doing?" "Oh, I work for my dad." "Well, what does he do?" "We work on septics," you know? And it’s kind of the end of the conversation. "Oh, but that stinks," you know, or something like that. So, anyway, we’ve made a septic company with a really cool image and a really clean environment. And I said, "Well, just, you know, talk about the idea that we’re providing professional environmental services," you know? And- and let’s make it cool. If the industry has had kind of a- a mar and it’s- we tend to operate at the lowest common denominator, let’s change that. You remember when the plumbing industry was- was sort of that way? Now everybody comes in looking like surgeons. So, you know, the plumbing industry has changed their industry. And I was like, well, we can- we can help change the septic industry too.
She just got married. Uh, Olivia just got married last June, I believe it was. Yeah, she moved to Mexico. Her husband was from Mexico, so we had to replace her too. Then my next son, Isaiah, he still runs, uh, quite a bit of the septic inspection side of things. You know, he runs the iPads, makes up the drawings of the systems, and runs the cameras and stuff like that. So, it’s been fun to incorporate the kids that, you know, because some of my older employees- we don’t have old employees anymore, but some of the older ones, they didn’t like running the iPads and, you know, charging people with credit cards over, you know, swiping and stuff. They’re just like, "Nah, send the bill," you know? But the young kids, and- and right now, we have pretty much all of our employees are like thirty and younger. So, we’ve- we’ve turned into a super young crew. And it took some green drivers, you know. I hired a girl right out of Ivy Tech, uh, CDL class. I mean, they charged her way too much and didn’t teach her hardly anything, but they gave her the certificate. And I knew her through 4-H, through my daughter. So, good farm girl and stuff. So, I knew she was good with equipment and trucks. So, she’s- she’s actually been one of my best drivers.
Taylor White: We did the same thing. We had a, uh, a woman driver, and she is now a project coordinator for us, actually. She’s amazing at it. But one thing that you touched on, I think, is important. I grew up in the world of, uh, septic systems as well too. Like, growing up, I was saying, like, "What’s your dad do for work?" "Well, he does septic systems." I always tell people now we’re professionals in the wastewater industry, you know, to make it not sound as bad. But I mean, like, it is the way it is. But we- we offer some more services and stuff now, but I would say 60 percent of our work is- is septic systems. And there’s a lot more to it now. But one thing that you said that made a lot of sense was like, your branding and how you present yourself is really clean. Your machinery, you’re clean. Uh, you know, your guys and girls, they probably look nice and clean when they come to a job site. Everything is kind of down to your machinery and everything. It just presents yourself, and it doesn’t have to be a dirty industry and showing up like this or, you know, like classic pumper truck guy that shows up, you know, and he’s kind of slobby looking or whatever. And like, it doesn’t have to be like that. But like, back to when you had your first truck, it was- you kind of- you painted your truck to just kind of always stand out and like your branding and your culture. So, like, what are you cognitively doing with like being able to to- to stand out on social media, make the industry look attractive? What would you say to somebody that does our industry that’s like, have a really niche conversation, you know, somebody that does septic systems? What advice would you give them as far as branding, social media, making it attractive?
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, for sure. Taking a little bit from the stuff we’ve learned from Marcus Sheridan: talk about the things that- that nobody’s willing to talk about. Sell in ways that no one is willing to sell. There’s a third one, I forget what it is. But the whole idea is the industry pretty much is a private owner-operator. Like, like I’ve seen on the back of a truck, like, "Nobody sticks their nose in my business," you know? That’s a funny slogan to be put on the back. But that’s kind of the mentality a lot of the- of people in the septic industry. It’s like, you know, "Stay out of my business. I just want to make some money and then go fishing and drink some beer." But we’re more like, we market ourselves from the side of you would want my- one of my crew members to show up if your wife’s at home by herself to service your septic tank. You would want us parked in your driveway because of the way our trucks look. You would want us to service your septic tank because there’s a lot of crap that can go on because everything gets covered up. Homeowners don’t know anything. How are they to verify whether you pumped all the solids out of the tank or not? How do they know if you are sloping the pipe the right direction until they cover it all up and you have- you have a mess on a Saturday night? You know, there’s a lot of ways that you could cheat in this industry. And there were people doing that when we got into this. And, you know, when we got the cameras and stuff like that, we started finding, you know, pipes going uphill into the field. And so, the tanks are overfull. And it’s like, did the guy just not bring his laser today or what?
The guy moved into a different industry about a year and a half later, and I’m like, I’d like to think we helped him move out of the industry because he just wasn’t being, you know, honest. And so, it’s all of those things. It’s- I think more than trying to sell on our digital presence now, we educate. I used to say, you know, I’m on my LinkedIn thing, you know, "Oh, I own Dig-it Excavating, and I run Pump That Septic, and I’m- you know, I have this credential and that credential and the other credential." But now I’m just like, I provide homeowners and business owners with septic education, solutions, and stuff like that. It’s like, we’re here to help. Sure, we- we have to make money. We have to pay for our equipment in our shop. And- and we have to pay our employees a good wage. But this is the way we’re going to do it. We’re going to be helpful. We’re going to show you. We’re going to be transparent. You know, we show the process. We show the pipes. We show the tanks when we’re done cleaning it. You know, we take pictures and put it on the- the job tickets and stuff like that. So, we’re being very transparent, you know, with all- the whole process from the beginning to the end. And that really sells people on our- our brand. So, that kind of helps eliminate the bottom-feeder type people. They’re like, "Oh, how much?" "Oh, you’re- you’re two thousand dollars more than the other guy." Fine. Hire him. I do not care. I’m not looking to work for you. And so, I think just educating the buyer ahead of time helps them to see, "Oh, these guys are actually providing quite a bit of value." And, you know, they’re transparent, and they- they’re going to do a good job. And so, that sells you kind of ahead of the time. So, and that really- it all goes into the branding image. And so, the more you can put your name out there, the more you can educate someone, the more you can make them feel like they’ve self-diagnosed and they’ve chosen you without the pressure. You know, who wants to go into- to buy a new car and like the guy comes walking up to you in the first thirty seconds and he’s like, "Hey, what car can I show you?" I’m just looking at the cars. Like, let me- let me decide which car I want, and then I’ll come talk to you. You know, it used to be you walk into a mall and people are like, "Can I help you find anything?" You know? No. Just let me look at my own shoes and look for my own pants or whatever. People- and they’re becoming more and more private. It’s really interesting with the whole digital phone, people want their space, and they want to be able to make their decision without you breathing down their neck.
Taylor White: I totally agree. I think it’s interesting. I like your point about not being the lowest guy. You know, we’re the same as well too. And especially when- when clients reach out and say, "Oh, you know, we’re looking for, like, you know, to get this work done." And then again, "Oh, the other guy was two thousand dollars cheaper." And it’s like, "Okay, well, our knowledge is worth more than that. What we’re going to bring to the table is worth more than that. Our guys that show up to site, you’re going to feel comfortable with them. Our- our everything will look better. It’ll be a cleaner job site." It’s just there’s our value, right? But what I- I say to that too is, and a lot of the people that listen to the podcast, what do you do if you’re the new guy starting out in septics or in this industry, and maybe you do need to be the lowest guy to get the job? Or how do you sell yourself not being the lowest guy when you are just starting out? And then to add on to that, would you say starting out in the septic business is a good business to start out in for the young guy or girl that’s listening to this?
Dervin Witmer: Oh, 100 percent. So, when we went into COVID, it was the best business to be in in our area because everyone went home, and, you know, the businesses were shut, the schools were shut. But guess what wasn’t shut? Your home. And guess what wasn’t taking a break? Your septic system. And so, all those septic systems that were on the brink just started to fail. And we kept the health of households going during- during COVID. And so, everyone’s going to have to flush their shit. Everyone’s going to have to keep putting in septic systems. And so, I say any type of a service industry that isn’t discretionary spending is necessary. That’s a good business to be in. And so, I say to the guy getting into it, take everything you can get when you start, but do a very good job. Be consistent. Don’t cut corners and- and be like, "Oh, just trying to get the jobs done quick." Just make yourself known as the quality guy or the responsive guy, the guy that answers his phone. All those basic things, uh, that sure, at the start, I took every single job I could get. And if it was another, you know, five hundred bucks in my- in my pocket.
And then find your niche. You know, find what people are not doing well in your area or find a different service that complements. And that’s how we got into hydro-vac work, is that some of the jobs we were doing just weren’t safe without hydro-vac. And it really opened us up into a whole another world. But you do have to be careful not to diversify so much that you lose your original niche. You lose your customer base. I mean, the people that put us on the map are the residential homeowners that needed septics. They are our bread and butter, and we’re really thankful for them. And we try and, you know, take care of those residential people. But, you know, that gets you into the municipal work. And, you know, so we do quite a bit of bulk hauling for like, you know, lift stations when projects go bad in the small towns around here. So, we’re not known as the cheap guys, but we’re known as the guys that will bring all our trucks out at the drop of a hat. And we’ll work all night if we have to to get the main break and stuff. So, yeah, take everything you can get, but look for that spot where you can do a better job than everybody else in your area. And then hone in on that and figure out what your moneymaker is. Our moneymaker is not our septic tank pumping. It’s our lowest ticket item. It’s the least return on investment. I mean, we bring a four-hundred-thousand-dollar truck in, pump your tank out, and charge you three hundred dollars. And, you know, a hundred and something of that is going to disposal fees. But it’s our salesman. Our trucks are a salesman. Our people are a salesman. They’re lead generators. They’re finding problems. We’re dealing with houses that are being sold on the market that need to be updated, you know, before the bank will lend money and stuff like that. So, I look at it as it’s just a bunch of expensive salesmen running around, you know?
Taylor White: Basically, yeah. You know, at the beginning of the conversation, I- I said, you know, septic system excavation. Are you looking to in the future expand and say, "Okay, maybe get some- some larger machinery to do some commercial site services or stuff like that?" Or are you saying, "Hey, I want to perfect- well, I think you have already perfected, but I want to stay within my niche that I have. I know the money that I can make in it, and, you know, I just want to stay where I am"?
Dervin Witmer: There’s two things that are kind of in the back of my mind. I kind of reached my first goal, and that was to build an excavation company and then build a septic company that is reputable in the area and that does well at educating, and then get into hydro-vac. Those were kind of my three big things. I’ve gotten into all of that. Now, the next- kind of the next level is we are, uh, just honing in on our SOPs or the way we run the company because it got bigger than just me and everything in my head, that everybody has to know what’s in my head now. And so, you put it out in procedures and stuff like that and finding a good CRM and, you know, software program that can manage all of these accounts because it’s a lot of accounts to keep track of. I mean, we have seven thousand customers. And so, it’s like, I don’t remember the houses that I pump anymore. I mean, I- I used to be like, drive past the house and like, "Yeah, I pumped that guy. I pumped that guy. I pumped that guy." But now it’s like my guys do stuff that I have no idea. We even- you know, people come up and say, "Oh, you pumped my tank." I’s like, "Great! Did they do a good job?" "Yeah." And I never met the person. I never did the job.
So, the idea is I would love to duplicate what we’ve done here, almost like a franchise. That’s always kind of been in the back of my mind. Could I take our system and, you know, do another location in Michigan? Could I do Southern California, you know, or whatever? You know, like if you want to retire in a warmer climate, how about we try Riverside, California, or something, you know? So, that’s kind of always in the back of my mind. And so, that’s why we’re building out the website and the advertising and the branding in a certain way that you can just duplicate it. I would even sell the franchise to another, you know, excavating company because generally what- what happens is excavating companies are a person. I mean, like pumping companies are a person. And excavating companies can be that way too, at least the smaller ones. So, they lack the marketing. They don’t have the budget for the branding. Where if we could sell a package to someone, you know, you know, Bob’s Excavating has a Pump That Septic franchise, and now they pump septic tanks too, or whatever. And that would be more next gen- the next generation that, you know, didn’t maybe start it, but the kids are involved, and they’re like, "We want to expand this, but we don’t have it figured out. We’d like to skip those ten years of figuring it out, and we’ll buy a franchise." That’s one thing.
Another thing is, yeah, for sure on the commercial or municipal side, we’re starting to look at bids that that look a little bit scary to us and be like, "Wow, this is like, you know, whoo, you know, four thousand feet of pipe and, you know, a lot of site work." How do you do takeoffs? And, you know, where’s GPS come in and all of this? I mean, we have autos. We have like 2D autos on our machines with Trimble Earthworks and stuff like that. But that’s pretty basic. I mean, that- you run off a laser, and then the machine goes auto from there. But it’s not like you can just do topos and parking lots and, you know, cut in curb and know where all your pipes are just through GPS or, you know, base and rover stuff. So, anyway, so yeah, we’re just kind of quoting some smaller commercial stuff, trying to figure out how to do the- the bigger quantity stuff. And the three-fifteen is our biggest excavator.
Taylor White: I love my- three-fifteens are fantastic machines.
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, it really is.
Taylor White: You have an Engcon on it, correct?
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, we have Engcon on the three-fifteen, the three-ten, and the three-oh-six. So, we have three of them. And the guys love them. I don’t say any one of our operators was scared of them. I learned on the three-ten; that was our first machine. And then it was too big for some of the repairs. We got the three-oh-six to do a lot of the septic repair stuff through, you know, for real estate and stuff. And then the three-fifteen we got when we started doing more commercial septic systems where we’re setting two-thousand-gallon tanks, you know, multiple tanks and big fields and stuff. So, and then we do demolition with the three-fifteen as well. So-
Taylor White: Oh, nice. With the grapple and stuff like that. What do you do in the wintertime when, uh, the weather doesn’t turn as great?
Dervin Witmer: We used to snowplow, but it just beats everybody up. We’re busy enough with the pumping stuff that the guys would rather go home early and get a good night’s rest and come back and work in the cold with a good night’s sleep than, you know, "Oh yeah, I was up plowing all night." Plus, you know the cycles. I mean, you can make money for a year or two, and then the next five, everybody’s into it. And it’s like, unless you’re Glacier Snow Management that has figured out how to make a- a nationwide movement out of it, whatever.
Taylor White: Yeah, I- I don’t know about that. But even in our industry too, I like that comment you made, but especially with us right now, septic systems. And like, I mean, maybe it’s the narcissist in me, but like, we put so much stuff online about septic systems, and people saw us grow and with the black machinery and our branding, much like what you’re doing. And I feel like it almost created this hype around septic systems, and everyone’s like, "Damn, there must be a lot of money in septic systems then." And then now, I feel like there’s so many guys that are doing septic systems around us that just have pickup truck, dump trailer, rented five, six-ton machine, which is awesome because everybody has to start somewhere. But I just find like right now we’re in this cycle of competitiveness. We have overhead. We have a big office, twenty-something people out there. We have to factor that in where that guy doesn’t have to. But then I always find like those guys that aren’t charging enough, there’s like a cycle, and then all of a sudden you stop seeing them on the bids against you because they realize, "Well, I can’t make money at doing it for this." But I guess, how do you combat the competitiveness? And I guess what’s the market like where you are?
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, I have to say the last two years have gotten tighter again. We’re not winning as many bids. There’s more competition getting into it. And it’s just the cycle of it. But we’re here to stay. We’re not here to grab a couple systems and then go on to something else. You know, we’re going to keep advertising. We’re going to keep getting into different technology. We’re going to get into the sites that nobody else has the expertise to figure out. We’re making the connections with PEs, you know, like designers and stuff like that. We’re becoming the authority. So, the PEs come to us and they say, "Hey, here’s this site. What technology do you want to use here?" And, you know, we say, "Oh, here, this is perfect for SludgeHammer, or this is perfect for Eljen."
Taylor White: You guys have Eljen?
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, we do.
Taylor White: Nice. Yeah, we, uh, we do a ton of Eljens, like, that’s a one of our main systems that we put in.
Dervin Witmer: Nice. Yeah, we love it. We just, uh, collaborated on our latest video. It just came out two days ago. We just collaborated with, uh, Eljen. They donated the Eljen modules for this veteran, and then the local supplier, Valley Farm, donated all of the pipe too to get this guy a cheap system. So, we were able to put him in a system for very inexpensive because he was on a fixed income, and he was a Vietnam vet. He had gone to Mexico and- and gotten in some motorcycle accident, didn’t have much money, and- and he was all freaked out because his septic system wasn’t working. And I’m like, my salesman was like, "Dude, if you ever come across any veterans that need a system, we love those situations where we can donate material to someone in need, especially a veteran," because they’re a veteran-owned company. They hire veterans. You know, they’re just- they’re just trying to help veterans, you know, succeed when they get back from service and stuff. So, that was a very rewarding, fun collaboration. And- and our latest YouTube video, uh, kind of just talks a little bit about it.
Taylor White: That’s really cool. Yeah, there’s so many different types of systems and the technology behind them now. Like, we have like Waterloo up here, which is, you know, acts like it has anaerobic digesters in them and the technology, and there’s a re-circ line on a lot of them that brings it through twice to get the effluent as clean as possible before we pump it out to that bed. And the sand specs are so much different now. Like, it’s not just regular bank sand, you know? Like, there’s, you know, your silt content has to be less than this, but then we want your percolation time between this and this, and your- your grain size has to be more coarse. And there’s a lot of really cool technology behind septic systems. And I could nerd out for hours talking about septic systems because I love it. And we have a sand pit, and we make like seven different types of sand for the different systems and Ecoflos and all that stuff. It’s just really cool. And I think a lot of people from the outside looking in, they don’t understand, I guess, what goes into a septic system and understanding, well, not only just the cost or the- the money behind it, but the technology that goes into, you know, when you flush your toilet, what happens? It’s really cool.
Dervin Witmer: Yeah, no kidding. I mean, there’s no new water on the earth. All the water we’re using has been reused for thousands of years. So, that’s crazy to think about, but it’s actually makes your job that much more important that, hey, we’re- we’re using that resource. We’re putting it back into the ground. We’re letting it evaporate off after it’s treated properly. And so, those- those things are really cool. I was going to ask you how the- the pit’s going because I- I knew fairly recently you guys bought the property and were like starting to open it up. So, I was kind of interested to know how that all was going.
Taylor White: It’s really cool. It’s a lot of fun. You know, for us, I think recently we just- we just passed two more specs. For us, it’s just, you know, working with our- our good friends over at GIP that actually allowed us to come in and- and do this and do, you know, kind of like a lease deal there. And we’re going to be, uh, opening a- a second pit next year as well. And- and that’s going to be really cool. But it’s just finding the- the- the different sands and- and the different specs. It’s really cool. And I think a lot of people from the outside looking in, I always was like, I want to vertically integrate, right? You know, like, sand for us was the most used product on our spreadsheet, right? I mean, we use a lot of gravel, but we use a lot of sand because not only that, you got sand fill for backfilling around houses, backfilling around your tanks, you’re using sand fill because you don’t need to use the expensive septic sand around it. So, I was like, "Oh, this is going to be great. We’re going to- our profit margins are going to go up so much higher." But like, all we ended up doing was, we- we had this sand pit, but we ended up just like spending more and putting more cost out to hopefully drive revenue because now we’re selling to the public. But it’s almost its own little separate business now, like the aggregate side of it. And Ken White Construction essentially pays Ken White Sand & Soil for its own aggregates. We obviously get a- a good deal, so if we need to be competitive, we can be. But there’s a lot of cost behind operating the pit. I mean, you got to strip the land, you got to push off the topsoil, then after everything’s all taken out and screened and brought there, you truck it, you got to do whatever. And then you got to rehab the pit on your way out. Make sure you’re all sloped at three to one. Like, there’s a lot of cost to it, but it’s probably the most fun thing that I get to do. Like, if there’s a day where I’m like, "I have nothing on my schedule," which is rare, but if it happens, I want to be out at the sand pit on a hot summer day, just slinging sand in the dozer, in the 38640 John Deere, and just no one there but me and just having a ball. So, it’s a lot of fun, but people, I think, from the outside looking in probably think like, "Wow, if I had my own pit, my own rock quarry, oh man, I could be so- like my profit margins could be so much higher." No, you just end up spending the cost on other stuff to get the sand or to sell more of it or something like that.
Dervin Witmer: It’s so heavy, overhead heavy, this whole industry. Doesn’t matter. You want to get into crushing? You know, we- we recycle concrete here. And I- I thought, "Oh man, that’d be so cool to buy our own crusher." I’m like, "Uh, no. No, we’re not buying our own crusher." You know, we get twenty grand or something, they’ll crush a big pile for us. And you’re like, "Wow, that was twenty grand." But yeah, the machine is hundreds and hundreds of thousands. And then you got to have the stacker, and then you got to have the breakers and the excavators and the loaders. And I’m like, "Oh my goodness, that’s a whole other ball game." So, it’s all cool, and it’s fun, and it- and it’s- it’s a- it’s a great industries to be in. But man, if- if you don’t like high, you know, uh, overhead and if you don’t like debt, don’t get into it.
Taylor White: I say the same thing. It’s definitely not for the faint of heart. I mean, like, I know- I always, you know, like, I have a GC business as well now, and, you know, engineers or, you know, designers will charge themselves out at like two twenty-five an hour. And I mean, you know, I get their invoices in, and I’m doing up the POs, and I’m like, "Are you kidding me? I’m getting two hundred and twen-" I had to spend six hundred thousand dollars on a piece of machinery. Then I got to spend twelve hundred dollars a day in fuel. Then I got to pay somebody forty bucks an hour to sit in it. Then I got- and to get two twenty-five an hour. You know? But then like- and I know that the engineers, they went through schooling and all that stuff, but I’m just like saying like the overhead, you’re so right. It’s like you have to have such a high stress tolerance and essentially it’s- it’s a massive risk, this industry. It’s how much risk can you- and stress can you really take on, and that allows you to grow and do as much as you can. But there’s a lot to it.
Dervin Witmer: I don’t know where people stand with Dave Ramsey and stuff. I’m- it’s really cool some of the stuff he talks about, but I would never be where I’m at if I was a cash-only guy. For example, back in twenty, I think it was eighteen, I paid a hundred thousand dollars for a ten-acre lot, and we built our shop for like five hundred thousand. It’s worth 1.5 million now. So, I tripled my money through borrowing money, basically. And so, I tell people, don’t build just a pole barn because it’s cheap for your business. Look at your excavating company also as a real estate investment. Put some money into the equity of your company, I’ll say, that you can pull back out that makes your company worth more. And so, it’s just stuff like that that you- you look for. And like, getting into the GC business, like on your end, that’s smart. You know, I- I keep thinking about, well, maybe we should do like build rentals or something like that too. So, it’s kind of cool to- to hear you doing that- that gig too. It’s just keep your debt load at a- at manageable levels. You know, don’t go out and buy the Chevy Escalade and the big cigar boat and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I always say, you know, if I’m paying on, you know, a few pieces of equipment, if I’m paying them off every five years, I’ll keep buying new stuff. Like, we paid off all our vac trucks and our dump truck, and I think we’re only paying on one excavator, the hydro-vac, and now we just bought a new- a brand new vac truck again. So, that’s a third vac truck, you know, like a five-thousand-gallon truck. And it was like three hundred and eighty thousand dollars. And I’m like, "Should we? Should we do-" I mean, that’s a payment again, you know? And so, yeah, it seemed like the right time, again, to reinvest in the further expansion of the brand and the company. And, you know, sure enough, the two-fifteen threw a, you know, a- a rear-end differential and threw a turbo and this that and everything. I’m like, "You know what? It’s time to maybe move some stuff." And, uh, we’re- we’re on the path to just, you know, go up with the economy with new stuff as we’re getting in. So, keep your long-term goggles on, play the long game, find those times when it’s time to invest and- and do it, and then pay stuff off. And it’s been- it’s been fun. It’s been a good business to be in.
Taylor White: It’s interesting, especially that like, you know, like this year we had a couple dump trucks come up and- and be done and paid for. And we’re like, "Oh, yes, they’re done and paid for." Well, I just got a mechanics bill for eleven thousand dollars for that truck. And then actually, just before this call, my coordinator called me and said, "Oh, we were at the pit on the scales, and, uh, Connor noticed an air leak in his truck. So, we need all new air dryer and all new wet tanks because they rusted out." And I’m like, see, it always is the way. As soon as something- you either have parts or payments. You know, and I said that- I had a podcast on Trent, uh, from Blue Collar Contracting. And I was saying the same thing, you know, it’s like parts or payments. It’s one or the other. Especially our dump trucks, they’re- we’re getting- all the time they’re out, right? So, it’s like, okay, great. It’s paid for. It- it’s nice to have stuff paid for, don’t get me wrong. But when you have payments on something, you also aren’t getting twenty-thousand-dollar, uh, repair bill, five-thousand-dollar here, a thousand here, twelve hundred here, three here. It’s as soon as they’re paid for, man, they just get rid of them because it’s just you’re going to start putting money into the- into the- the parts and stuff. But if the economy turns down and you don’t have payments, you’re not paying out parts because your machines aren’t working and your overhead is lower, and it- you can sit a little bit longer if things are a little bit slower. But that’s where risk comes back in and the overhead, and you get that little twitch in you that’s like, "Well, it’s pretty easy. I could go just buy that." It’s a wild industry.
Dervin Witmer: Yeah.
Taylor White: Hey, funny story. Do you know that I met you at ConExpo?
Dervin Witmer: Where?
Taylor White: Okay, at that- you did like a young industry thing out in the meet-and-greet area or that- that little container?
Dervin Witmer: Yes.
Taylor White: Yeah. So, you did like- I don’t know if it was a podcast or you just did-
Dervin Witmer: It was a podcast, yeah, with someone from AEM, yeah.
Taylor White: Yeah. So, you did the podcast. And, you know, I think you were trying to appeal to the younger crowd and stuff. And here this, uh, forty-year-old guy comes up and says, "Hey, Taylor." And we took a picture and everything. But anyway, I was like, "Oh, I got to meet Taylor. He’s there." And, uh, so we got a picture together. And it was just a quick thing. There was a bunch of other young kids around just yammering it up and stuff.
Dervin Witmer: That’s so cool.
Taylor White: Yeah. So, I was like, I just had to mention that. I said he probably never even remembers-
Dervin Witmer: No, I generally do. There were so many people that day that I- I remember. I mean, faintly, I probably do, yeah. But I mean, I appreciate you being there. And I look forward to this coming up show in March. Are you going to be coming in March?
Taylor White: Yeah, I’ll be there. I generally come with Engcon and help, you know, their- you know, we’ve been to Sweden and stuff. And so, we generally host some demo days here every year for, you know, demonstrations for Engcons and stuff. So, they generally take us over to ConExpo as well.
Dervin Witmer: That’s awesome.
Taylor White: Well, I’m pretty sure we’ll be back again.
Dervin Witmer: Sweet. Well, I appreciate you cutting out time to chat with us today on the podcast. And I really look forward to seeing you at ConExpo. You know, thank you- thanks again, and, uh, we’ll catch you at the show, March third to seventh.
Taylor White: Sounds awesome. Looking forward to it.
Dervin Witmer: Awesome. Thank you, Dervin. This podcast is brought to you by our good friends over at John Deere Power Systems. Thank you very much. Have a great day.
