Remote operation is coming to the job site! Bryan Furnace has tested the Cat Command chair and brought back a timeline that might make contractors nervous. Taylor pushes back hard, and their debate is one of the many highlights of this episode.
Having spent twenty years in the dirt doing finished grade, septics, and sewer taps, Bryan’s operating videos have led to a career hosting Equipment World's The Dirt and beyond. Today, he explains what surprised him about remote operation and where he feels the technology still fails. He and Taylor also tackle the questions most people ignore: who buys the gear, what happens to crew sizes, and whether a 22-year-old would ever trade his pickup for a remote seat.
Topics:
- How remote heavy equipment operation works
- How AI could automate heavy equipment operation
- Attracting the next generation of equipment operators
- When remote equipment operation could go mainstream
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Episode transcript:
Taylor White: Welcome back, everybody, to the CONEXPO-CON/AGG Podcast. I am your host, as always, Taylor White. Back with me here today, actually, I said "back with me," but it is really "back with me" because I was on his podcast a little while ago, about five years ago, actually. I have Bryan Furnace here with me today. He is an operator, he ran Diesel and Iron, and he is the first ever, I have it written here Bryan, the National Equipment League champion.
Bryan Furnace: That is my belt right over my shoulder there.
Taylor White: I love that. I love that. So, Bryan, give people a little bit of a rundown. I am assuming everybody listening knows who you are. I was on your podcast, you know, five years ago. You are down there in Michigan, not too far away from me. You have your own business. So, let’s hear what is going on.
Bryan Furnace: Yeah, so I have been in the industry for roughly 20 years. I spent a lot of time in the residential market, as we are all familiar with, doing the finish grade septics and sewer taps for home builders. Then I moved over into the heavy civil side and worked for one of the largest contractors here in Central Michigan on highway projects and getting into airport work. I took some time out of the actual operator seat and went and sold heavy equipment for two and a half years. Then, when COVID came along, I got laid off from that. With COVID money coming in, I thought, "I have got a YouTube channel. Let’s go push something that kind of promotes the industry." And Diesel and Iron was born. I have been doing that for about five, going on six years now. Really, the goal has been to inspire the new generation to get into the industry and then also give them some basic skills so they hit the ground running. Through that, I have become the host of The Dirt for Equipment World on YouTube. That has really led to a lot of the relationships that I have now, including the relationship I have got with you. Really, that show is dedicated toward equipment reviews, talking about things going on in the industry, economic trends around the construction industry, and stuff like that.
Taylor White: It is kind of crazy. I always find certain types of characteristics in people that go toward, "Okay, I want to start a YouTube channel," and stuff like this. I want to just touch on that real quick because I always find that really interesting. Obviously, that is how everyone knows who you are, is by putting yourself out there. What was kind of like that moment where you started thinking, "Okay, this is something that I want to do and I can do"? Because it is a big thing for someone to film themselves and post it online. It takes the right type of person to do that, and you know that.
Bryan Furnace: Yeah, it has kind of been a journey. To be totally honest, I had posted some stuff way back in the day that was just a couple of videos online of me operating, and I did not really think much of it. Then, during COVID is when I kind of looked at that. 1,200 people had decided to randomly subscribe to this channel that I had done absolutely nothing with, and I thought, "What if I go try and play with that?" The initial kind of what got me into it was just a possible income stream. I have always had a creative aspect, but I cannot draw, I cannot paint, I cannot do any of that stuff. So I thought, "Well, I have always loved video editing. Let’s go play around with that." That is kind of how it started. What it has really morphed into is recognizing how hard it is to attract people to this industry. The more I talk to the newer generation coming in, they did not have the dad, or the grandfather, or the uncle that was in the industry to give them a heads-up of what they were walking into. A lot of them were just getting blindsided with the job site dynamics, getting yelled at, and the way our industry operates. I mean, let’s be totally honest, spending two years on a shovel before you even touch the controls of a machine blindsides a lot of these kids. So, really what it has become is my passion of trying to just teach this younger generation. Like, "Hey, this is what the industry is, this is what to expect." If you come into it knowing that, it is an awesome career path. There is a lot of money to be made, and let’s be honest, it is a lot of fun.
Taylor White: I feel like nowadays, too, there is a lot of the younger generation that obviously loves the technology part of it. These machines have insane technology in them now. I mean, there are machines that are bare bones, but then there are machines all the way to machines kind of running themselves right now, or you are in a different location and it is kind of virtual or it is autonomous. I kind of wanted to touch on that because we were, just before the podcast came on, kind of going back and forth about what we think about technology and where things are going. I know that you have a strong opinion on this and have a lot of info on this. So, kind of walk me through it. You are sitting in your house in Michigan, running a piece of iron in Colorado. How does that actually work? Is it like Cat Command chair, Starlink? What is going on here?
Bryan Furnace: Yeah. So, what prompted that whole thing and my whole thought process on this was for The Dirt. We were going to do a quick demonstration of the Cat Command chair. For those not familiar, it is a remote operator station, similar to the simulators that you see in these training centers and stuff, but it uses a high-speed internet connection. You can either hardwire it, or, since I am in the sticks in Michigan, they brought out a little Starlink setup. This trailer pulls up in my driveway at 8:00 in the morning, and within 15 minutes, they have got the little Starlink thing sitting out in my yard. I pop into this trailer that has got an air conditioning unit on the top of it, and I sit down in this chair.
From the time they pull up to the time I start running a loader in Colorado was about 15 to 20 minutes. The latency was... I mean, there is a little bit of latency, but not at all a hindrance to operating. I am legitimately running a loader. They have got the little dump bin there, and they have got a gravel pile that I can go into. Obviously, having experience as an operator makes you able to do it pretty quick, but it did not take me any time to pick up that machine running it virtually. Then, with a couple clicks of a button, I am now in Arizona running an excavator at their proving grounds. The switchover took all of 15 to 20 seconds for us to physically switch from one machine to the other. I still had my spot reserved on the loader, so another operator could not jump in that seat. I could very quickly just hit a button and jump between the two seats. That is where I kind of went, "The industry is underutilizing this technology."
Right now, the way everyone thinks about it is you set this up in a mining operation, or maybe we are unloading a ship where it is a dangerous situation to have an operator in the seat. As Caterpillar, we are going to sell you this chair, and it is going to sit in a back office or it is going to sit in a shipping container somewhere on site, and you are going to run this machine that is still on site but you are running it remotely. Why are we not using remote operation on everyday job sites? The technology is already here. We have all of the safety measures in place. That is really where I started to go, "Okay, there is way more that this could be utilized for."
Taylor White: What surprised you? Everything you said at the end there I want to get into, but I want to talk more about what surprised you with it. What felt normal and what felt wrong?
Bryan Furnace: As a traditional operator, I had the exact same knee-jerk reaction as pretty much every operator out there: "There is no way you are going to be able to do that without feel." What surprised me is just how intuitive it was and how quickly your brain just adapts. I thought for sure, you know, when you think about running a loader, a lot of times it is really the viewing angle that you are sitting at. It is the feel of knowing where that cutting edge is as you go in flat to the pile so you are not digging. I thought for sure I was going to struggle on that front, and it was not that way at all. Within one or two tries at going into the pile, I was going into the pile and filling the bucket just fine. Judging distance between the dump bin... we were simulating dumping into a truck, so we had the big concrete block set up there. Judging distance, I thought, was going to be difficult. Not at all. The most surprising aspect of it was just how quickly I was able to adapt. It was not nearly as difficult as I thought it was going to be.
Taylor White: What about the latency? You said that it was kind of like a hurdle. How close are we here? And what does "good enough," I guess, look like?
Bryan Furnace: This is where you kind of get into the limitations of where we are at. Again, I was on a Starlink connection, so I cannot honestly attest to if I am hardwired into high-speed internet. I am sure that latency goes down. But it was enough that I would not want to labor in the hole when I am digging in an excavator. But at the same time, loading a truck or anything like that is no problem at all. Again, your brain very quickly adapts to that latency to where it very quickly becomes not really that noticeable. It is very noticeable in the very beginning, but before you know it, you are just running the machine. It is just like running any other machine. Every machine has got its little quirks and idiosyncrasies, and you just kind of adapt to it. This was the same way. Within probably five to 10 minutes, you do not even notice the latency anymore. It is just part of the way the machine acts as you are running it.
Taylor White: Then you said safety. What does it have for obstacle and personnel detection? Because as a contractor, how could I trust a machine on my site with the operator 2,000 miles away?
Bryan Furnace: So, that is another huge concern of everyone, and yet the technology is already there. We already have all of the obstacle detection. You can see on the cameras the little boxes popping up when it detects something. I was speaking to an individual at Caterpillar who said they were actually doing a demonstration at one point in time, and not intentionally, someone walked where they should not have. It was the first time they had an incident to where, had it been an actual operator in the seat, the person would not have made it. But because of the obstacle detection, the loader was able to detect the person and hit the brakes and stop the loader before the person was run over. So again, these safety measures are already out there. They are in place. A lot of the skid steers that are coming out now, especially for paving crews where you are working in really tight quarters with laborers, you have got RFID sensors that can be implemented in the machines. The technology is here to put those protections in place.
Taylor White: It is crazy because safety is such a huge thing, obviously. On most job sites, especially on larger job sites, the first thing a contractor looks at is your safety policies and how stuff works. As an owner, playing devil’s advocate to this: I am paying a guy or girl that I have never met to run a $400,000 to $700,000 excavator. Sell me on it. How does that make sense?
Bryan Furnace: Well, first of all, I would say: what are you currently doing with new hires? You are in the exact same boat. You are going to throw some guy that says he has got experience into a $700,000 piece of equipment on an active job site, and you do not really know what his credentials are. He has told you he has this much experience, but you do not have any proof of that. So, it is really trial by fire. Where I go with this ultimately is if you really think about the way the industry would utilize a remote workforce. This conversation is moving toward a remote workforce for operators. I truly envision a construction-focused website that is kind of equivalent to Upwork or something similar to that, where you as Taylor, business owner, would go on and you could either select operators or, as operators apply for that position you have open, you can go through their credentials. These are real credentials because every time they do a job, it goes under their portfolio and their history of what they have done.
To go a step further, let’s say you are on a special project that is kind of outside of your typical wheelhouse. Why throw your everyday operator in that position and have him figure it out when you have this talent pool that is now either countrywide or global that you can tap into? Let’s say we are doing a very deep water main that is in really wet conditions and your operator just does not have the experience in that. Well, no big deal, because I have got a bank of 20 guys right here that have 20-plus years of experience doing this exact situation. You can just hire them for the day, you can hire them for the week, you can have them run that machine knowing confidently through the website and their credentials that they have the skill set you need to do that job.
Taylor White: It is so crazy to think about. So many things go into my head with this. I am a big advocate for technology and pushing technology, but I also like the conversation because I know, and I am sure you could imagine, how many people would be listening to this being like, "This is not going to work." What do you think this does to company culture?
Bryan Furnace: I think company culture will change. Really, this is going to be a complete evolution of the industry because a large company is no longer going to have 100 to 200-plus operators. A large company is probably going to have closer to 50 to 60 operators that you are really going to want in the seat when you have laborers in the hole. If we are doing physical work with people in the hole, we need to have someone in the seat that has total control. But outside of that, I go back to my days with the large contractor here in Michigan doing highway projects. We have got a machine that is going down the highway breaking concrete. That does not need to be an operator in the seat. You have got an excavator that is chasing and pulling the concrete. That does not need to be an operator in the seat. You have got a dozer that is coming and cleaning up behind the excavator and pushing the crumbs up to him. That does not need to be an operator in the seat. We have got our edge drain, or the under-road drains that go in. They have got laborers. I could absolutely see one or two operators being a part of that crew because you are working right alongside laborers. But following that is a dozer that is pushing stone that has GPS site files in it. That does not need to be an in-the-seat operator. You have got your guys that are grading out for curb behind them. That does not need to be an in-the-seat operator. You have got your finish crew that is doing all of the dirt work on the side that, again, is mostly GPS site files. If not, we have this beautiful Cat Grade Assist that I could throw on remotely that helps me do my finish passes. That does not need to be an operator in the seat.
I think what happens is company culture does change. You have a much smaller company and still a tight crew, but I would argue that it is a tighter crew and you have a closer, tight-knit community because your company is smaller, and smaller businesses just have that better community. For the industry, though, that is where I see some true changes happening. You are from the north, I am in Michigan. We have about a six-to-seven, if we are lucky, eight-month work season. That means that during construction season, I am not getting vacations, I do not get to take time off, and I do not get to spend time with my kids. I am working crazy hours because that is the only time we can get work done. If we switch to this remote workforce situation and I am an independent contractor, I can take jobs whenever I please because I am either owning one of these chairs, or I lease one, or I rent one. Now, all of a sudden, if I want to go take a family vacation, I just do not sign up for jobs next week. That is no big deal. I just leave a gap in my schedule and I go take a family vacation. If my kid plays ball on Tuesday evenings, I just make sure I take a job that I know I can finish by 2:00 in the afternoon, and then I do not sign up for another job.
Similarly, on the other side of it, let’s say you have got a job that really needs to get done. We now move to the possibility of having a 24/7 workforce because it is not like you have got to keep an operator overnight. You can rotate in a fresh operator at 5:00 in the evening. It may be... we have to see where the industry goes with this... it may be I pass off to someone overseas where it is their daytime, but they are running this machine overnight. Now, as a contractor, you can start bumping your timelines up. We can be that much more productive in these northern states because we can run the equipment 24/7 because we have the workforce to do it. We are not stuck pulling from this local talent base.
Taylor White: I am just wondering, though, can you pull out and sub guys? For us, an example would be a big land-clearing project this winter. We did 45 or 50 acres, and we had one guy that just did it. He went there in our 36-ton with the big root rake, and he had a system down. He knew where he stopped that day, he knew where he was starting the next, and he knew the way that he was combing it was exactly how the clients wanted it cleaned up. What I would worry about by, "Oh, we will just get somebody else," or if he wants to just take off next week and get somebody new in, is how do we quality control the work to make sure it is getting done the same? How do we make sure that person that is overseas or in a different area has all the info to make sure the job does not lose efficiency because they were not the one that started it?
Bryan Furnace: Sure. The beauty is we live in this era of technology. Really, the way I envision this is when you sign up for the job, as I take an operator job for you, Taylor, part of that whole connection process through the website would be us sharing contact information, and then we would jump on a call exactly like we are on right now. "Hey, this is the job, Bryan. These are the expectations. We have got this, this, and this that need to happen." That is the way that is going to happen to set us up for the job. You would send over your GPS site files so that I can load them here locally into my chair and then any blueprints or anything that I am going to need for the job.
Similarly, you are going to hire, let’s say this is a 24/7 operation, you are going to hire another operator like me. This may be a three-way call. When me, as the daytime operator, goes to swap off with my nighttime operator, he and I are going to jump on a call just like this. I am going to say, "Hey, John, this is where I left off. I have got my pile of all the tailings sitting over here on the west corner. You need to make sure... I did find that we had an electrical line running through this area of the job, so make sure that you are really careful in this area." I can mark that because, again, we are using the technology where I can pull something up and mark it right here on my screen and show you visually where it is at. We do a five-to-ten-minute handoff conversation before your day crew and your night crew swap over. While that is happening, you as a business owner allot that machine to be down for a half hour because that is when your fuel and lube guy comes through. He is going to grease the machine, check all the fluids, and get it filled up with fuel and DEF. He is going to make sure that machine is totally ready to rock, and then he is going to turn the key on so that now my nighttime operator can log in, fire the machine up, and it is back to work.
Taylor White: Where does AI come into this and essentially skip over even the guy sitting in the Cat Command chair? Will that happen? I see videos online of AI robots in commercial spaces laying tile, grouting, and coming behind them putting tile on the ground, laying brick, doing a lot of stuff that people were like, "Well, AI cannot do my job." And it is like, "Dude, AI is starting to do your job." So, where does it skip over even... actually, we do not even need these guys in the seats? AI knows... it is smart enough to go to a job site and understand from previous history that it has and all the files that are uploaded to it, how to just do the job without somebody even in the seat.
Bryan Furnace: That is a great question. Honestly, I do not know how well AI will adapt to this industry. I know every industry loves to say, "Oh, they could never do that," but there are a lot of industries where there is a fair amount of true repetition. One thing that is very unique in our industry is, while there are a lot of repetitive motions, the conditions are constantly changing. I do think AI eventually will start to take over some of these roles. Then, I think what this becomes is one operator... this is kind of where we move into that whole labor force conversation that we do not have the manpower... this is where I think you have someone who has got 10 years of experience or 20 years of experience sitting at a chair at the ready, but now they are monitoring 15 to 20 machines. They are there to jump into a seat if needed, if it gets itself into trouble or if it gets into a situation where it needs assistance. But outside of that, they are really monitoring equipment and only jumping in when necessary.
Taylor White: So, how does this actually all work? Let’s say I want to start utilizing Cat Command chair. Let’s talk 10 or 15 years from now and everyone is actually using it. Ken White Construction, am I buying a Cat Command chair and sending it to this guy’s house? Where is this guy that is halfway across the world? Where is he going to sit in this seat to operate? Because you would still be going to work. You are not just sitting at your house.
Bryan Furnace: Why not? That is where I go with this. Why not?
Taylor White: Who is sending it to their house, then?
Bryan Furnace: No, I do not think you own the chair at all in this. The way I envision this is I, Bryan Furnace, am going to go spend 100 grand on one of these chairs. Whether I buy it outright or maybe my local dealer leases them or rents them, I could also see the potential of me starting a business. This is where there are a lot of possibilities in actually expanding our industry and creating more jobs. I could see a business model where I personally go buy 20 or 30 of these chairs and I start a little cafe, if you will, to where these operators come and they just pay me a daily fee or a rental fee for the booth, and that is their station. But they do not have to own the technology. Maybe it is the dealerships. Maybe they lease me the chair at a rate of 800 to 1,200 bucks a month, and that is just part of my operating expenses as Bryan Independent Operator, Inc. I do not think you as the business owner do anything except for either own the machine with the remote capability or, let’s talk for a second about swelling up to take one of those bigger jobs.
Instead of having to go buy more equipment, hire more operators, and then create this beast that needs to be fed when that job is finally over, with a remote workforce, if we need five more operators next year and five or six pieces of equipment, we are just going to worry about leasing the equipment for the next year from Cat. We just have to make sure they are remote-capable because then we can go to the web and we can find our remote workforce. It is something where you may do this at a daily... "Hey, I did not like that guy, it is a daily thing"... or you may sign up for a long-term contract where, "Hey, I like this guy, he is going to be my remote operator for the next year on this job." Once that job is done, you get to shrink back down as a company overnight. You get to send those machines back. They are off of your books. I, as an operator, and the four or five others that you hired in, we go away because we are independent contractors. You are not paying for workers' comp, you are not paying for benefits, and you are not paying for any of that stuff because we are all independent contractors working for you remotely.
Taylor White: Okay, Bryan is going to set up this business where he has a cafe that people come to and it has got 20 chairs. Let’s say that somebody does not do that, though, or you live in... and you are saying that it is not up to you, the business owner, to buy the chairs and stuff like that. How do we get these chairs out to the operators? To get this technology out to the masses and to actually globally start doing this, the chairs have to get to the people. How are they getting to the people without Bryan setting up a cafe in Michigan?
Bryan Furnace: This is one of those things where, as an industry, once the general contractors really start to catch on to this, it is going to be a holdout, holdout, holdout, and then all of a sudden you watch the industry change almost overnight because it is a cart-and-horse situation. You as Taylor are going to have a hard time hiring remote operators because there is not this talent pool out there that owns these chairs. There is not a talent pool out there with these chairs because the jobs do not really exist yet. But as soon as that switch flips, it is going to happen really quick.
Now I can absolutely see it being a deal where all of your operators are going to the Cat dealership and going, "Hey, how much is it to lease or buy one of these chairs? Because I want to sign up for this website, this Upwork of construction. I want to put myself out there. I want to start working from home." Now all of a sudden, the dealerships become the vendor for these chairs. Think about it from a dealership perspective: you cannot just put one of these chairs on an open router in your house and just have anyone be able to access it. Dealerships are going to have IT departments. They are going to send guys to the house because I am Bryan, I am a dirt guy, I have no idea how to work computers. So, the dealership is going to have an IT guy come out to my house and set this chair up, make sure it is secure, and make sure that it is networked the way it needs to be. Then they are going to hand me the keys to it, and then I sign up for Upwork for construction and away I go. That is the distribution system for the chairs.
On the equipment, let’s be honest, the equipment is already being sold with these capabilities. It is a matter of Caterpillar flipping the switch or, maybe, you have to put the upgrade package on that machine that you are buying. But if the industry starts going this route, it is like all this other technology we see where it is not even an option anymore. Your Cat machine is coming with Grade Assist. It is just coming. It is going to be the same with this remote operation capability. It is going to come with the technology. It is whether or not Cat flips that switch for you because you paid a little extra for it.
Taylor White: Yeah, I agree. That was a question that I had written down: "Okay, let’s say I am not paying for the chair, but I now have to pay... I mean, it is $70,000 just to get my machine up-fitted for full 3D GPS control, whether it is Trimble or Topcon or whatever." It is $70,000 to $80,000 to get somebody to come out and fully set it up, give you all the software, and put the stuff on your machine. I can only imagine what this costs because I am sure that, yes, these machines right now come with cameras and sensors, but I am sure there is a hell of a lot more stuff that they have got to put on in order for this to actually work.
So, now I have to see the value in adding and putting that onto my machine, because there are still people that do not have GPS. A lot of my competitors still do not even run GPS. So, that is why this is such a far-fetched idea, honestly, in my opinion. If we are still having conversations about people trying to buy into GPS and now we are trying to be like, "Hey, now spend..." I am sure it is probably going to be six figures easy to put this equipment on it. Let’s say an equipment manufacturer flips the switch on my loader so that I have scale capabilities. It has it, but I have to pay them $10,000 to just go "bloop, okay, now you can scale your stuff going into your truck." I am sure that "bloop" with this stuff is going to be $150,000 to $200,000 easy.
Bryan Furnace: I do not know that it would be that high. Also, this is obviously the market of supply and demand. If they put some astronomical price tag on it and the industry does not adopt the technology and cannot afford to go that route, they cannot carry that price tag. Realistically, they are just flipping a switch. They can come down on that price. It is not like they cannot make a living if they do not come down on that price. But as far as the price point goes, I do not know how taxes and everything are up there in Canada, but down here, whatever I am paying you as an operator, you can just about double that to take into account all of the taxes and unemployment, all of the extras that we are paying on top of that. But that is only if I am a full-time employee working directly for you. It is not as an independent contractor.
So, I would argue, are you telling me it is not worth it to flip that switch if you could take 60% of your operator workforce and turn them into independent contractors? I know a lot of the industry hears that as, "Oh my god, you are talking about doing away with our jobs." No, I am not talking about doing away with your jobs because, again, the flip side of this is I am talking about giving you as someone in our industry the freedom to create your own schedule, to work when you want, and to be able to spend time with your family. We have one of the highest suicide rates out of all of the trades in our industry, and a lot of it goes back to the fact that we spend so many hours of our lives working and not being able to be around family and community. We are talking about now totally flipping the script on that entire conversation. So, no, no one is taking your jobs. Life will get better for you as an operator under this system.
Taylor White: So, two things. Will I, as an operator, will I make more money because I am operating remotely?
Bryan Furnace: I do not think you are going to make less money. I do think you will make more money because now we are adding yet another skill that I have to have. It is one thing to be able to operate a machine in the seat. It is an entirely different skill to be able to do that remotely and still be efficient and utilize the tools that are given to you. So, there will be a little bit, at least initially... I am sure the market will kind of correct itself... but initially, I think you are going to pay a little bit more for that remote operator and the skill set he brings to the table. Now, there are a lot of advantages to that to justify the price tag.
I think, long-term, what will happen, though, is the wage market will kind of start to level. Right now, in the U.S., southern states, there is a large wage disparity between southern and northern states, and a lot of it has to do with the unions, which is a whole other topic of conversation. But I do think that what is going to happen, because now you have the ability to pull from this... let’s keep it simple and nice... national talent pool, I do think you are going to have this kind of balancing where southern wages are going to start coming up. So, me as a southern operator, I can start taking jobs that are paying more because those jobs have to compete with what is happening up in the northern states. There will also be a little bit of a coming down of the wages in the north, probably, as we level those.
But the flip side is, if you really think about the long-term aspect of this, we are about to retire something like 50% of the people that are in our industry that have skills. So, right there, take the remote operation out of this whole conversation. Just because we are now shrinking our talent pool by about 50% due to retirement, you are automatically going to have an increase in wages. So, I do not see anyone taking some huge hit to their paycheck because we go this route.
Taylor White: My mind keeps coming back to one thing, and it is: how are we getting these things to people? I know that we keep talking about it because I think that it is harder than what you are describing. Then, where my mind goes when you say, "Well, the dealerships, they will sell them and they will have lease options and this and that." Okay, well, I would say that the majority of people, just because the cost of living is so expensive, already struggle with trying to make a mortgage payment or get out of their mom and dad’s basement and go buy a house. Now, you are going to try to sell them on the fact that, "Actually, don’t do that... and I know that you are having a hard time... or don’t move out and buy a house, because we are shifting to this remote operator, go lease a Cat Command chair." I just don't think that people have that money to go and do that. Then, if you are saying that they are not going to make significantly more money, why would they want to go and buy it, then?
Bryan Furnace: I do not know about you, but when I pull up on any of our job sites, I have a hard time finding someone not driving around an $80,000 to $100,000 pickup truck that you no longer need because you are not on a job site. So, I would argue: trade in the truck and put it into one of these Cat Command chairs because, now, you can work when you want, you can work where you want, and you can work the hours you want, and you do not need to have that really expensive, gas-guzzling pickup truck. There is not a need for it. When it comes to wages, I would argue the blue-collar world is continuing... we just had, over the last two to three years, a huge rise in what we have to pay operators and truck drivers to show up.
If you take this whole industry and take it back 20 or 30 years, we sent an entire generation to college because that was the only way to be successful. Now, as a result, we do not have the input of people coming into the industry. We also do not have the skill set and the retention of knowledge that we used to have in the industry, which means that the few of us remaining are having to jack our prices up because we are busy. It is getting to the point where if I want a plumber to come plumb something on my house, he is three weeks out. I cannot call a plumber and have him here tomorrow like it used to be, and he is charging a heck of a lot more. It is the same for our field. As people continue to retire out, as the workforce continues to dwindle, wages continue to go up, and that is already starting to prove itself out. So, I would argue that being in our industry puts you in a position to where you will be able to afford that house, you will be able to afford that Cat Command chair, and you are not having to pay for the expensive pickup truck to get you around a muddy job site anymore.
Now, let’s talk about attracting new talent. All these kids do not want to go to job sites. They do not want to work in the dirt. They do not want to be out in the heat, in the elements, and the cold in the winter. But, boy, I bet we could attract some people if we can tell them, "You are working from your home office," or you drive 15 minutes up the road in your car and sit in one of these little cafes and operate from a chair.
Taylor White: I think the disconnect for me just comes from... I just disagree. I don't think... if you go to one of my job sites right now and you told my guys, "Guys, trade in your pickup trucks that are your pride and joys, and you could drive a Prius, or you just don't need your truck anymore, and get a Cat Command chair. Then, you guys can stay home and you don't have to drive to work and hang out with everybody," they are going to be like, "Fuck that."
Bryan Furnace: You think so?
Taylor White: 100%. 100%.
Bryan Furnace: How old are your guys, just out of curiosity? What is the average age on your crew?
Taylor White: 21 to 22.
Bryan Furnace: So, you think even the young guys would struggle with that concept?
Taylor White: Oh, I would put thousands of dollars on it. 100%. But again, and this is why these conversations are fun, but where I am from, I come from a very rural farm country. We have got farm guys that work for us. To me, and honestly me, I do not want to stay home and work. I want to go and see the boys on site, have that morning coffee, talk shop, and see what is going on. That is blue-collar. That is construction. I think that is the problem with the Cat Command chair, and I think why, probably, I just cannot see this stuff going to the masses. It is coming, and it will happen, and there are people that will think this is awesome.
But I am saying, largely, blue-collar people, I do not think they are buying into it. I do not think they are saying, "I am going to get rid of my truck so I can afford to buy a Cat Command chair and I want to stay home." They want to go and see the boys, and see the guys, and see their buddies and their friends. So, that is where I come from on it. I find it hard, and maybe it is just locally where I am, and maybe just my own mindset, but I cannot see them buying into it. I think the problem with it will be getting the Cat Command chairs out to the masses, getting this technology out to the masses, and then selling it to the operators. I just cannot see it.
Bryan Furnace: I have a couple of thoughts on all of that. So, first of all, there will always be a core where we need operators in these seats. For all your farm boys, for all these old-school blue-collar guys, absolutely, those jobs will still be there, at least in the near future. I do not see those going away soon. So, there is still that opportunity to be the traditional blue-collar guy. But the flip side is I also think there is a bit of how you view it. When you kind of put it in the context of, "Hey, you are going to do the exact same thing but you are going to be able to do it from home, sell your truck, and drive a Prius," well, yeah, no one is going to go for that. But if you really think about what that opens up for you: "Hey, we are going to give you the opportunity to stay in the industry. You get a ton of variety in the jobs you are on." Because if we are truly going this route, I could be on a job in Arizona out in the plains, I could be on a job site in Colorado up in the mountains, I could be running a little D3 dozer over here, and I could be on a 385 excavator the next day. It opens up a lot of opportunities that you just do not have when you are stuck working in one location for one contractor on the same job for... let’s go back to my road construction days... I am there for eight months, assuming that we do not bleed into the next year. That just gets tiring after a while.
Now, all of a sudden, you have got this very dynamic job that you are able to do. If you like leaving the house, maybe you do go that internet cafe-style deal versus doing it from your home office. But I think it opens up a lot more opportunity that you just do not have right now. As a result, there is also that changing of the guard. We are really at this point in the industry where you have the old-school blue-collar mentality that really holds on to everything you just said. But then there is this new generation coming in that does not have any of that and is going, "You want me to get up at 5:00 in the morning so that I can be on site by 7:00 for fire up? I have got to grease a machine, I have got to be out in the rain, or in the cold, or in the heat, and then you want me to spend 14 hours a day in this cab? Then you want me, on top of that, to go drive an hour and a half back home? That is my day, and I get to do that seven days a week during the swing of the season? I am not doing that." We are seeing that. There is so much turnover. I was talking to a contractor here locally the other day who said to keep someone for a year is his biggest hurdle. He goes, "It is not worth putting time into them for the first year because 90% of them quit because they decide this is not what they signed up for." They wanted to run the machine, they wanted to come out there, but they did not want to put in that sort of hard work.
That is where I see this coming into effect: that new generation that is coming in. They do not have the attachments to that old-school blue-collar mentality. Don’t get me wrong, Taylor, I love the sentiment, I love the old-school blue-collar. That is what I have been in this industry for; that is what drew me to this industry. But we also as an industry have to acknowledge what the new generation is looking for. As much as the industry wants to say, "Nope, you have got to adapt to us, that is the only way this is how it is," we are seeing time and time again that all that is doing is making people turn away from our industry and go elsewhere.
Taylor White: Yeah, I totally agree. I want you to know, I love playing devil’s advocate, too, because this is what sparks great conversations on a podcast.
Bryan Furnace: No, absolutely.
Taylor White: I love technology; I think it is great. I also think what you are describing is the ultimate workplace. Our guys do not work 14 hours a day and seven days a week and drive three hours a day. We do not work our guys like that. That is us adapting to the new world. I remember growing up, if you took a summer vacation... because it was four guys whenever I was working for my dad back in the day, I was a laborer... you just did not take summer vacation. You were not allowed. It was like, "This is our work season. No, you are in construction, you suck it up, you take your vacation when you are laid off in the wintertime." That has changed immensely. My dad, still, he will look at our work calendar and see, you know, this guy is off or that guy is off, and he will be like, "Grrr." It is like, "Dad, you have to adapt and change. These guys need time off; they need breaks."
I am 31 years old and I just took my first summer vacation this year. We went to Maine; it was awesome. So, I think we are adapting to make it more approachable, obviously, for the younger generation. They want to take their time off, and people need... we realize now we need more work-life balance to keep people’s mental health in check. That is a conversation that we discuss a lot, too. But I love these conversations because it is almost like the conversation of GPS. Everyone kind of can agree it is like, "Hey, if you can afford it, it is a great thing." To me, it is like you cannot afford not to have it, honestly. Ever since we went to it, I am like, "This is crazy." I would love to sit down in a couple years or whatever and be like, "Wow, you cannot afford not to have a command chair." When do you see this happening? What’s your timeline for something like this, if you had to guess?
Bryan Furnace: Man, if I had to guess, to be totally honest with you, I could see this starting to roll out within the next five years.
Taylor White: Wow.
Bryan Furnace: Like we said to begin with, all of the technology is already in place. It is just the industry hasn't really made the leap to go, "Hey, this isn't something that's just for mining, it's not just for dangerous site conditions. This could become the workforce, this could become the way we do business." Especially for large contractors, I think this could become very attractive because of what we talked about: the ability to eliminate the overhead of a lot of those operators. Again, going back to that talent pool, I worked for a company that was 300-plus operators. They were constantly trying to hire better talent, but you cannot because there is only so much talent in the area. When you have got four or five large companies pulling from that talent pool, plus all of your small contractors pulling from that talent pool, there is only so much true quality talent that can go around.
That is another element to this whole thing: we now open up this labor market. If you go this route with this kind of website mentality and this remote operation, bad operators are not going to hack it in the industry anymore. I mean, it is going to be very apparent from the job history and the reviews that your previous contractors have given you. If you are not hacking it in the machines, you do not get jobs. No one is going to accept you in their machine. So, it starts to create a system to where the labor market regulates itself because now you truly know what kind of operational skill you are getting.
Taylor White: I totally agree with that. I think that the timeline probably isn't far off. I mean, technology moves super fast right now and everything is just crazy. Honestly, stuff changes so fast, even with AI. Utilizing AI in our office, running scheduled tasks on Claude... Claude is huge. I am right now... it is one of my favorite things. When I have time in the office, I am setting up scheduled tasks or starting new projects. Every morning at 6:00 a.m., it goes through and combs through my emails, and my text messages, and my calendar and tells me, "This is something that was on here that you should be talking about. Oh, and here is the reply to it." It is really cool, it is really neat. So, definitely, I am an adapter of technology. I am excited for it, man. I love the conversation and I love that you are very passionate about it. I am very passionate about the technology as well. I really look forward to seeing what comes from it, dude.
Bryan Furnace: Go sell your truck.
Taylor White: That is the takeaway, right?
Bryan Furnace: Sell your truck, man. Get a chair.
Taylor White: Sell your trucks, yeah. If you got one thing from the podcast, understand that. I love it, man. I love the back-and-forth. I think that is what makes great, healthy discussions. I want to thank you for coming on the podcast today and giving us your information on it.
Bryan Furnace: Yeah, thanks for having me. This has been fun. Like you said, I love the discussion. I love kind of... we all know and can feel that our industry is changing. What does that actually look like? It is kind of fun to go down that rabbit hole.
Taylor White: Yeah, totally agree. All right, well, Bryan, I appreciate it, man. Thanks for coming on the CONEXPO-CON/AGG Podcast, and we will catch everybody else on the next one.
